Corona virus deaths in Italy and national healthcare

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by Josephwalker, Mar 10, 2020.

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  1. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Italy is having a much worse time with this than we are. Could this be why?
    “The healthcare system in Italy is a regionally based national health service known as Servizio Sanitario Nazionale (SSN). It provides universal coverage to citizens and residents, with public healthcare largely free of charge. ... Once registered, a health card and a health number will be issued.
    upload_2020-3-10_17-47-20.png
    Allianz Care › health-and-wellness
    Healthcare in Italy | Allianz Care
     
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  2. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    This is what socialism does to healthcare.
    “A doctor who asked not to be named because of potential repercussions painted a dire picture of the situation in a hospital in Milan. While the coronavirus is best known for causing severe disease in elderly patients, even some young people are affected, the doctor said, and without sufficient beds and ventilators, some can’t be treated.

    The hundreds of patients needing treatment for pneumonia have swamped the supply of available specialists, the Milan doctor said. Physicians such as gastroenterologists, who normally focus on the digestive system, have been conscripted to help out with lung patients, and they’re still not enough, the doctor said.”
    https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/...ushes-italian-hospitals-toward-breaking-point
     
  3. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you have a headache or a small cut, socialized medicine can give you an aspirin or a band aid.

    Cancer, heart disease, or Corona? It's best to be in the U.S.
     
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  4. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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  5. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  6. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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  7. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying our system would not be overwhelmed by a pandemic of this proportion? No one was ready for this.
     
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  8. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  9. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Ok, Italy actually has more beds for capita than we do, 3.2 per 1,000 people vs 2.9 in the US. They also have more physicians per capita: 4.2 per 1,000 vs 2.6 in the US. And this a country that has almost half the GDP per capita of the US and can't afford anything close to the healthcare that we can, so its not even a fair comparison. They also spend $3,500 per capita on healthcare, vs $11,000 in the US. South Korea also has universal healthcare and their death numbers are much lower. I'm also curious how America is going to turn out with our shy-high healthcare costs, less physicians and hospital beds, few measures to stop the spread, all the uninsured, under-insured, and homeless everywhere.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  10. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Socialized medicine leads to a lack of doctors, hospitals and technology. Italy is finding that out the hard way.
     
  11. Herby

    Herby Active Member Past Donor

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    A healthcare system that works well can reduce the mortality rate of those who are infected and experience complications, but when it comes to the spread of the virus it doesn't have much of an effect. When it comes to the spreading of the virus only rather totalitarian moves really help. Spread information (ideally truthful, but still scary enough to keep people alert without causing a panic), restrict the movement of people, cancel events, quarantine at a personal, local, regional and/or national level, and more... It sucks big time, but I guess that's how it is when you encounter an infectious disease with no cure or vaccine. A small change in the transmission rate can have a huge effect on the outcome.
     
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  12. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Beds and GP doctors are great for cuts and bruises but Italy lacks specialist and specialized equipment and their people are dying due to this result of socialized medicine.
     
  13. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Italy's socialized medicine has been immediately overwhelmed.
     
  14. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence to support that. For example, Italy has 142 specialist physicians per 100,000 vs 55 in the US. And keep in mind that they aren't as rich, so I'd actually expect them to be less able to afford expensive healthcare. We also have fewer doctors and hospital beds for basic healthcare for the sick the handle the crisis. And you are totally ignoring South Korea which also has universal healthcare.
    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.SAOP.P5
     
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  15. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    South Korea has universial healthcare and it wasn't overwelmed. The "theory" that such a system can't handle this is absurdly simplifying and simplified.
    Let's wait and see what happens when the US has about 55,000 infected which would be the equivalent to the ~ 10,000 infected in Italy. Then one could draw some superficial conclusions. Would be interesting to see how the US system reats.
    Sad to see another thread not based on facts but merely motivated by political ideologies which, of course, blames everything on whatever that ideology says is right or wrong.
     
  16. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    This is why socialized medicine in italy is tying their hands in the corona outbreak.

    "There are still a few centres specifically devoted to pulmonary rehabilitation across Italy. In a national study published in 2004 [3], only 53 rehabilitation departments and/or pulmonology units were estimated to warrant availability and accessibility to pulmonary rehabilitation, with more than half of them being located in the north of the country. This seems to be a poor perspective when related to the actual epidemiology of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease patients (2.5 to 3 million in Italy) [4] dealing with the early onset of disability. As well as additional and increasing problems of difficult weaning, pulmonary rehabilitation and physiotherapy in chronic and critically ill patients admitted to acute hospital care [5]. Most of the patients still have their rights to pulmonary rehabilitation denied. There is no information as to whether there have been improvements in the number and distribution of pulmonary rehabilitation centres across the country in the last 10 years; thus, as a consequence, we are now planning an update of that survey."

    Finally, and in contrast to the organisations in North and South America, in Europe there is still a lack of physiotherapists specifically involved in pulmonary rehabilitation and qualified to deliver programmes to respiratory patients. This has been emphasised in Italy in recent years [7], with the academic qualification of these healthcare professionals being an important aspect of the problem. On the one hand, the overall request to study a degree in physiotherapy is very high in Italy (one student admitted to the university over 14 requests of admission) [8], on the other hand, the specific qualification of a respiratory physiotherapy does not exist and only post-doctoral courses (masters) can be obtained for this qualification. In addition, during the degree course in physiotherapy, <10% of teaching credits are dedicated to cardiopulmonary problems.

    https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/44/5/1382
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  17. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    So far.
     
  18. Caligula

    Caligula Well-Known Member

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    Complete meaningless comment on your part.
    How about you prove that the US system would act better in the exact same situation.
    Only then one could have a halfway realistic comparison.
     
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  19. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Time will tell. What we know so far is Italy's socialized medicine system immediately failed in a crisis.
     
  20. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    You can't say I didn't warn that it was risky to try and confuse a rightie with facts. :)
     
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  21. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Facts.:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
  22. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    Is there evidence that it is likely that there would be a pandemic that is of the proportion that you are asserting?
     
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  23. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Italy is the country whose healthcare capacity was being discussed. Italy has 877 cases that are listed as "serious". 877 serious cases would not overwhelm our system. Not even close. 877 wouldn't even overwhelm New York, much less our entire country.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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  24. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    Aired you sure?
    877 icu cases WILL strain your system no matter how good

    I think though we wait and see
     
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  25. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    877 cases will strain whose capacity? Our country?....Please. That's silly. We have 6000 hospitals in this country.

    Additionally....the classification of serious by no means equates to ICU cases. While not specified, it probably refers to hospitalizations. The way they list it is two categories in one (serious and critical). Critical is likely ICU but serious is likely not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
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