Covid-19 vaccines safer than aspirin and Tylenol

Discussion in 'Coronavirus Pandemic Discussions' started by CenterField, Jan 21, 2022.

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  1. independentthinker

    independentthinker Banned

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    Funny how they can take an entire article and not really say anything but spew their propaganda. How many people die or suffer severe health consequences from taking aspirin or Tylenol? What are the numbers? They don't tell us. How many people die or suffer severe health consequences from the vaccines? What are the numbers? They don't tell us.
     
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  2. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sure, sure, pal. The one thing you're not considering is that the SARS-CoV-2 itself causes WAAAAAAAY more blood clots and heart inflammation than the vaccines, period. So trying to avoid these troubles by avoiding the vaccines qualifies as one of the dumbest strategies known to men. One, the blood clots do not occur with the mRNA vaccines, only with the adenovirus-vector vaccines of which only one is approved in the US (J&J) and are extremely rare, and rarer than those caused by simply traveling by airplane, much rarer than those from birth control pills, from smoking, and so on. Two, the heart inflammation that the mRNA vaccines can cause is very rare, mild, and transient, while the one caused by the virus is very common including in asymptomatic cases in healthy individuals, and much more severe. Think of it. The heart inflammation is thought to be related to the spike protein, of which the vaccines deliver a few copies, while the virus delivers quadrillions of copies. Which one do you think is more damaging?

    What you're saying is equivalent to this: "To avoid a fender-bender, I'll drive into a wall at 200 miles per hour with the airbag off."

    "Smart" choice. You do you.
     
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  3. CenterField

    CenterField Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Huh, what? Monte, you want to AVOID the virus through natural immunity... by CATCHING the virus yearly? You're playing with fire, my friend, given that this virus can damage your heart (even in mild or asymptomatic cases and much more frequently and more severely than the mRNA vaccines can very rarely and mildly do), your brain, your insulin-producing pancreas cells, the inner layer of your blood vessels making you prone to strokes and pulmonary embolism, your lungs, your kidneys, etc. All this, in one bout of infection... and you want yearly bouts of infection, in the name of "natural immunity"? Natural immunity against what? Against the same virus you'll be catching??? What you are saying is profoundly paradoxical.

    Sure, if someone accidentally catches the virus, for a while they'll be protected against re-infection, by natural immunity; re-infection does remain possible later, especially with the Omicron variant, and maybe also future variants. But I don't understand your logic. You are an intelligent individual and I'm frankly appalled that you're considering such a strategy.

    There are several cases described of people intentionally catching the virus in "Covid parties" and the like, then suffering severe consequences (sometimes including death). Sure, for a while they'll be protected against re-infection... with the damage already done. Does it sound like a smart strategy to you???

    One of the reasons I've been posting less frequently here is that I'm getting tired of all the nonsense, which still thrives 2 years into this. Even smart and rational posters seem to succumb to it at times.

    Another reason, is that obviously I've been busier with the Omicron surge. Like I've mentioned before, I quit my voluntary assignments at the Covid unit but even in my non-Covid unit things are busier simply due to the workforce being out with Covid, making us short-staffed. We haven't peaked in my state yet. I think we're about to peak, and I look forward to things calming down.

    But I'll probably not be back here as often anyway. Fighting off the kind of misinformation we find here is tiresome when it's done for so long but the misinformation persists.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  4. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All it takes is once......but never know when it's coming.
     
  5. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    No, I was trying to make the point to 557 that you'd have to catch Covid repeatedly to keep your immunity up.
    I don't intend catching it once if I can help it.
     
  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I appreciate your willingness to have rational and interesting discussions even when we don’t see eye to eye.

    No because nobody knows. What we do know is it lasts longer than vaccination on average because natural immunity induces more antibody affinity maturation than vaccination and it elicits production of long lived plasma cells (a long living memory B cell that produces antibodies indefinitely).

    When the infamous study came out of Israel showing much longer protection from natural immunity it was downplayed. But now that we are at a similar time point from mass vaccination as Israel was for that study the CDC has under the radar admitted this month reinfections with Delta were lower than breakthrough infections with Delta. Here is that admission.

    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm
    I believe it’s highly unlikely you will see media or others who attacked the Israeli study admit our data confirms theirs and the attacks were unwarranted. :)

    If you are interested in the “why” here is one published study on antibody affinity maturation.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7

    On the subject of long lived plasma cells this study is the most interesting to me because it confirms my predictions on PF about the mistake of limiting antigen in the vaccines to spike alone.

    https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/vaccines/vaccines-09-01503/article_deploy/vaccines-09-01503.pdf

    At the end of the day, for a short period of time after vaccination or booster, neutralizing antibodies will be higher in vaccinated vs. natural immunity. However, the affinity maturation after natural infection is superior and natural infection produces long lived plasma cells. So a couple to a few months after last vaccine dose natural immunity becomes equal and then superior over time especially against new variants. Repeated boosters can keep neutralizing antibodies high at least as far as we can see, barring eventually problems with reduced vaccine effectiveness like we see with annual influenza vaccination and boosters of HPV vaccine.


    With the advent of Omicron the best approach is to prime your immune system with general health and/or (preferably both) vaccination and forget about it. Your government has figured this out and that’s why they are dropping mask mandates etc. Omicron will be the better booster than we have the ability to create at this point in time. It will provide better antibody affinity maturation than a booster and long lived plasma cells with VERY little risk to vaccinated or previously infected individuals.

    Yep. If I was vaccinated and not immunocompromised I would be happy for an omicron infection. Better to be infected with mild omicron than a possible more lethal variant in the future. Of course the next variant could be even more mild but no guarantee. It’s a gamble. I am not attempting to avoid Omicron.

    We will all have at least a couple SARS-CoV-2 infections. Possibly an infection every few years. Most will be asymptomatic, especially in vaccinated and healthy people. Covid will end up a lot like influenza B. The human population will have a relatively high level of herd immunity, especially to symptomatic disease. Some will still die, especially in the aged and immunocompromised, just like with all infectious diseases. Those who live a healthy lifestyle will see fewer infections and fewer poor outcomes from Covid. They will also benefit more from the almost certain to be recommended annual Covid vaccination, just like they benefit more from annual influenza vaccination.
     
  7. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    So long as you are here on the 7th Feb when the Canes come to Toronto...
     
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  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I find it fascinating after I post about misinformation and disinformation from “professionals” we get a video containing disinformation from “professionals”. Deeply disturbing but proves my point.

    A couple examples. At the 5:40 mark the lady makes the claim antibody responses are tailored to the infecting pathogen alone, and are not effective on variants, completely ignoring the well known and understood antibody affinity maturation I’ve previously described and linked to studies of that results in memory B cells and antibody clones capable of recognizing and fighting new variants.

    At the 6:10 mark the man in the video claims those who are vaccinated are much better off than those with natural immunity. He then presents a study that doesn’t compare vaccinated naive to natural infection. The study done by the CDC in Kentucky compared natural immunity to hybrid (vaccine plus natural infection) and did not include an arm studying vaccine induced immunity alone.

    Clearly the video is produced by people not qualified to comment on the subject or by people who are dishonest.

    On the subject of current vaccines on Omicron the CEO of Pfizer has this to say. Specifically the 1:30 minute mark.


    We are not likely to ever live in a world where we don’t get infected with Covid. We are going to have to accept it will be like influenza. Vaccination and natural immunity will help but some will still get sick and die.

    It would probably help people feel more comfortable with this new endemic virus if so many lies had not been told about influenza and Covid. For example, every time we discovered a Covid sequela like hair loss or cardiovascular damage, experts pretended this was unique to Covid—like SARS-CoV-2 was a magical virus capable of things we’ve never seen before. But we know influenza causes very similar sequelae. Instead of telling people Covid was behaving as a normal viral infection people were led to believe it was frighteningly unique. We now have people scared to death of myocarditis from Covid who are completely unaware 100,000 people die of cardiovascular influenza sequelae annually in the United States. It’s going to be impossible to get people to accept endemic Covid now because it’s relationship to other endemic viruses has been blown out of proportion. When I bring this up I always make clear at this point sequelae from Covid does look worse than sequelae from influenza. It’s a serious problem and a very good reason to protect yourself (with the knowledge that breakthrough infections only have a 50% reduction in sequelae compared to unvaccinated infections) through vaccination and other means. But with what we are learning about lack of sequelae in children with Covid, it’s likely in a decade or two immunity from childhood Covid will drastically reduce sequelae in the population compared to what we see initially today from a novel virus.

    The last thing I think is relevant here is avoiding infection can no longer be the long term goal of individuals. If you are vaccinated and boostered and relatively healthy Covid is a risk we will have to accept if we want to live a life with any semblance of normalcy. As a society we drive vehicles on public roads. We consume alcohol. We eat foods that are detrimental to health. We sit watching screens to entertain ourselves. We know all these things contribute greatly to all cause mortality but we do them every day accepting the risk with seldom a thought.

    I’ve been reading what’s available on how stress relates to Covid infection and poor outcomes. It’s mostly been ignored. It interests me because in populations of livestock species stress is one of the most likely outside influences to be associated with respiratory disease outbreaks. We do know the “stress hormone” cortisol is pronounced in hospital admissions for Covid. We know high cortisol predicts rates of infection with other pathogens. We know stress severely negatively impacts the immune system. But there has been no concerted effort to mitigate stress effects on the pandemic. At the individual level I believe making peace with Covid is essential to mitigating against Covid and other stress influenced health conditions including heart disease and hypertension. A continued state of anxiety is counterproductive.

    I’ll stop now and give everyone a chance to tell me how stupid I am and how I just want everyone to die because I disagree with public health experts on some major issues. :)

    Oh, yes, I certainly agree the risk from Covid exceeds the risk from vaccination for the majority of demographics. Absolutely.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
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  9. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yes, you can choke on a glass of water too
     
  10. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But the Government isn't trying to force you to drink it.
     
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  11. Peter the Roman

    Peter the Roman Newly Registered

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    Covid-19 vaccines hardly ever cause adverse effects, and when they cause then they are mild, that is what pro-vaccines repeatedly tell us, but there are some links counting deaths and serious cardiac problems in athletes, and I feel you must know this information. For example:

    https://goodsciencing.com/covid/athletes-suffer-cardiac-arrest-die-after-covid-shot/

    Here you can see data since January 2021, and it is true we'd need data from previous years to properly judge if those injuries and deaths are normal or may be vaccines related, but 311 dead?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  12. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ya can drown from wearing a seat belt
     
  13. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Regarding a risk-benefit analysis, based on her calculations some months back LTC Teresa Long, a Flight Surgeon at Fort Rucker, found that for younger military aviators the risk from the shots exceeds any benefits it may deliver.

    AFFIDAVIT_OF_LTC2_Long.pdf (americasfrontlinedoctors.org)
     
  14. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Tell it to my girlfriend who developed cancer in the lymph nodes of her throat directly after the second shot.

    She got the first shot and she was fine. She got the second shot and her arm swelled up like a baseball the same day, then she got a very sore throat and then a lump started to develop in her throat and actually as I typed this she's in radiation right now.

    But I'm sure it's just a big coincidence and had nothing to do with the vaccine....
     
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  15. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Can you supply research citations to support the claims in your supplied video? Specifically at the 1:35, 5:40 and 6:10 marks. Or are we supposed to take the word of some unidentifiable person behind a news camera?
     
  16. Professor Peabody

    Professor Peabody Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course ya can, but ya can't drown in a seatbelt if ya don't drive your car into the water. Accidently or on purpose, cars are for driving not crashing. I can't accidently get the vaccine(s), only on purpose. Would you drive your car on purpose into the water just to see if you can get out of the seatbelt?
     
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  17. The Verb

    The Verb Active Member

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    Well you defeat your own argument there without even knowing it, because vaccinated will get it and have mild or asymptomatic cases, and therefore by your reasoning everyone is screwed.

    I guess then Covid is the armaggedon or however it is spelled that no one suspected it would be.

    See you guys in Hades then.
     
  18. The Verb

    The Verb Active Member

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    So do you believe the VAERS database is made up?
     
  19. Collateral Damage

    Collateral Damage Well-Known Member

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    Considering those who have taken the injection have possibly reduced their own symptoms if they should become exposed, but still catch, carry and transmit the virus, there is no honest 'benefit' to try and guilt other people into getting it other than satisfaction of having a larger clan. The want to have other people 'agree' with you is a strong motivator for some but the supposed benefits it was originally sold on are not applicable.

    If you want it, get it. If you don't, don't get it. Unfortunately, that statement ticks some people off. I wonder how many boosters people will be up to in say, 5 years.
     
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  20. Montegriffo

    Montegriffo Well-Known Member

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    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html
     
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  21. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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  22. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    but it's a crime not to wear a seatbelt
     
  23. Peter the Roman

    Peter the Roman Newly Registered

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    Excuse me, English is not my mother tongue and maybe I expressed incorrectly. What I said was:

    "Covid-19 vaccines hardly ever cause adverse effects, and when they cause then they are mild, that is what pro-vaccines repeatedly tell us ..."

    I was simply repeating what pro-vaccine people say, and afterwards I put a link counting deaths and serious cardiac problems in athletes since January 2021.

    I'm not pro-vaccine nor anti-vaccine either, I'm in the middle with an open mind.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
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  24. The Verb

    The Verb Active Member

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    I'm vaccinated, and I'm with you. There is misinformation on both sides, it's up to us to figure out what the truth is. Those that say there are no injuries are lying or naive. One of my colleagues died 2 days later, he had intense chest pains the same day and in 2 days post vaccination a heart attack. No history previous. To say there was no relationship is b.s.
     
  25. The Verb

    The Verb Active Member

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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022

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