Debunking 6 Myths About Anders Breivik

Western culture has some roots in Islamic culture and thewre will always be examples of cultural variations spanning different major cultures which can give rise to interesting religious variations. I think perhaps with time the Muslim immigrants to Europe will have to develope a variation of Islam hardly recognisable to Gulf Arabs!

 

They already have. Islam is just as diverse as Christianity.

 

Tyrerik , according to better educated British + EU muslims, , its already happening



.

 

lols - it has been happening for centuries. Islam is the same as christianity in that it adapts to the local culture.

 

Really? That's certainly news to me, I assume you can back that up? You can start by finding the equivalent Islamic clergy to the Rev Klaas Hendrikse of the Exodus church part of the mainstream Dutch protestant Church.

"Personally I have no talent for believing in life after death," Mr Hendrikse says. "No, for me our life, our task, is before death."

Nor does Klaas Hendrikse believe that God exists at all as a supernatural thing.

"When it happens, it happens down to earth, between you and me, between people, that's where it can happen. God is not a being at all... it's a word for experience, or human experience."

Mr Hendrikse describes the Bible's account of Jesus's life as a mythological story about a man who may never have existed, even if it is a valuable source of wisdom about how to lead a good life.

source

I wait in anticipation of the Muslim cleric who doesn't believe in life after death, regards the Quran as mythology and thinks Mohammed may never have existed.....

 

Oh well if its been going on for centuries then you can help Junobet finding the examples, I think he'll be very grateful for any assistance.

 

I agree there is some small evidence of this however the general drift is in the opposite direction towards fundamentalism.

 

Well not that it matters, but I'm a "she".

As for examples. No help needed. It's a well known fact that Islam incorporated local cultures and religious elements of where ever it settled, just like Christianity did.

For instance Shia Muslims in Iran celebrate Nowruz, a festival that has its roots in Persia's ancient Zoroastrian culture. Muslims from Indonesia will probably have never heard about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nowruz#Nowruz_in_the_Twelver_Shi.E2.80.99a_faith


And in my Church we light a Christmas tree on the eve of the 24th of December, a tradition that goes back to ancient heathen times and that is despised by Jehovah's witnesses.

 

Not that I dispute that radicalization towards fundamentalist Islam isn't a problem, especially after the US decided to answer the 9/11 attacks in such unwise ways. But how do you know it's the 'general drift'? I see plenty of young Muslims that are not fundamentalist at all and would prefer a good hip hop tape over a bin Laden video any ole time. Personally I'd prefer Taqwacore-Punk, but it has not made it quite over to European shores yet and is more of an American thing so far: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqwacore

 

Its worth noting that the BBC now describes Breivik as a far-right extremist dropping "Christian".

The 32-year-old far-right extremist admits the killings but denies any criminal guilt.

source

 

I knew that but must have forgotten!

I am not disputing that Islam incorporated local traditions just as Christianity or other religions have however this is very far from the diversity in Christianity I gave an example of. Therefore it may well be that Indonesian Muslims have no idea about Nowruz but certainly they will recognise the core beliefs in Mohammed and the Quran etc. The same cannot be said of my example of a Christian just down the road in the Dutch Bible belt of the Rev Klaas Hendrikse version of Christianity which is radically different.

Yes, its against JW's version of Christianity to celebrate birthdays however this divergance is not anything like as radical as the example I brought is it? Remember the assertion is that the religion of Islam is as diverse as Christianity.

 

A little reading perhaps:

The revival is a reversal of the Westernisation approach common in many Arab and Asian governments earlier in the 20th century. It is often associated with the political Islamic movement, Islamism, and other forms of re-Islamisation. While the revival has also been accompanied by some religious extremism and attacks on civilians and military targets by the extremists, this represents only a small part of the revival.

The trend has been noted by historians such as John Esposito and Ira Lapidus. An associated development is that of transnational Islam, described by the French Islam researchers Gilles Kepel and Olivier Roy. It includes a feeling of a "growing universalistic Islamic identity" as often shared by Muslim immigrants and their children who live in non-Muslim countries:

The increased integration of world societies as a result of enhanced communications, media, travel, and migration makes meaningful the concept of a single Islam practiced everywhere in similar ways, and an Islam which transcends national and ethnic customs.
—Ira Lapidus

source

In my own neck of the wood I notice it has become more and more common for Muslims to wear the headscarf as I believe is the case around the world.

 

I would doubt very much that dervishes who try to come closer to Allah by dancing until they reach a state of trance have very much in common with Taliban who reckon music is blasphemous.

So is it possible that – just like I do – you are just more familiar with the intricacies and discussions within of your own religion than that of others? Maybe accordingly a Muslim living in a non-Christian country will think all Christians are more or less the same, thus linking me to the likes of my brother in Christ Hagee *shudder*.

Funny how two people can read the very same article and come to very different conclusions as to what it means. Did you overlook the highlighted bits and/or forget to read the bits you omitted?

Has it ever occurred to you that the only people you can identify as Muslims are those who choose to wear traditional Muslim gear and there might be loads of Muslim girls in your neighbourhood who don't wear headscarfs that you have never noticed? Also among Muslim girls in my neck of the world it seems to be a growing trend to combine headscarfs with wearing the tightest jeans they could squeeze into. Hardly a sure sign for 'fundamentalism', but quite cute from a fashionista's point of view.

 

there is a problem - but you have to look at why that is.

certainly over the last decade, for many muslims their experience of western media is that "islam" is interchangeable with "terrorism".

how does this shape their world view?

among most young muslims I know this has not been the case - in fact, most women I see wearing naqib are western converts, not born muslims. Although I have also spoken to a few mothers (who don't wear hijab) who are not happy with their daughter's decisions to become more religious and don the headscarf.

but that said, among the kids my daughter went to school with, for most their being muslim was less of an issue than being catholic was for me when I was at school. The children most isolated from the mainstream by their religion were a hindu girl, and a plymouth brethren girl.

A couple of guys went through a funny patch when they were about 16. It was ramadan, and maybe they had been influenced by someone at the mosque, but she has seen these guys around, and they seem to be normal. Personally, I think the fact that they idolised american gangsta culture was more cause for concern than their being muslim. Personally, I prefer the muslim rap - the message is more positive, doesn't encourage misogyny and glorify selfishness and criminality.

It is my experience that muslims are no different from any of us. their religion is more a part fo their life than we generally find among most christians - but certainly not all christians.

those that move to the west from elsewhere - unless they feel marginalised - will generally adapt to their new surroundings, bringing some of their own culture with them - as have every other immigrant group.

You might want to read Tariq Ramadan. he is not as radical (as in what you were hoping to find) but he is a modern Islamic cleric who is trying to find the balance between islam and the west.

There are others.

 

there certainly is a trend among some people - but it is not universal.

its an easy way to identify SOME muslim women, but not all.

 

I think you will find that both agree the Quran is the literal word of Allah and that Mohammed was the final prophet. There is nothing like the same consensus among Christians that the Bible is the literal word of God. Even then this doesn't come close to the divergency Rev Klaas Hendrikse stands for.

I agree that differences appear greater in one's own group than for soemone outside that group however as I've made clear that doesn't account for the point I have made.

No i didn't overlook or forget anything in the source or text I brought but you are welcome to explain why you should think that.

No that hasn't occurred to me and I find it rather a strange idea that Muslim girls I noticed previously should with the years fade from my perception. I can even see in the same family a full circle change where the mother wore a scarf although her husband would've prefered her not to, to the first two daughters not wearing it and the third wearing it and influencing the second daughter to start. The mother wore it because she felt comfortable with it finding a degree of religious solace in a new country which the first daughters did not. The third daughter wore it out of religious conviction which spread to the second daughter.

The tight jeans and other fashion attire is evident here too and there is also a curious mixture for example on the football grounds. I disagree however that it isn't a show of the drift towards fundamentalism. Had the Muslim girls before not been influenced by Western fashion trends then you would have a point but they were of course and there is no evidence for me that there has been a change there.

 

OK so we agree that Islamic fundamentalism is a problem. By why you mean why it emerged not why it is a problem and you mean the causes have to be understood in order to deal with it, correct?

I’m sorry but I simply don’t buy your idea that Western media has driven Muslims to fundamentalism. I believe the reasons given in the quote I brought are much nearer the mark and that it all started long before Islamic terror made headlines.

Our experience is different again. I have never to my knowledge seen a Western convert wearing niqab but see it worn regularly and more and more often. Yes earlier Turkish immigrants invited to work here had no problems being Muslim, it wasn’t an issue just as Hindus or Budhists or whatever. This is also in the source of the quote I brought as is the explanation.

There seems to be a contradiction in your sentence. If religion is more a part of their life than the religious Christians then doesn’t that mean they are different? Of course if religion was simply a personal matter then this would not mean much just as a belief in UFO’s or superstitions doesn’t, however my contention is that it isn’t.

The problem with your assertion is that in many cases it turns out that the most fundamental extremists actually were not marginalised but had found a place in society. The difference with present Muslim immigrants to the West is the hostility they have to the West in contrast to earlier immigrants who saw the West in a very positive light.

Tariq Ramadan, the man who wouldn’t condemn stoning although he opposed it, he is a moderate for you? AFAIK he isn’t a cleric anyway, where does he preach? Perhaps you should come up with the others…

 

I haven't said that western media caused the problem at all - but they have certainly exacerbated it. and its not just the way muslims are portrayed, but the way events since 9/11 were portrayed as virtually a crusade.

but it does of course go back before that.

one of the major factors is that people think of this as a conflict beween Islam and the west, but it isn't. Its a conflict between traditional cultures and modernity - and largely happens within emerging nations. we focus on what is happening in islamic nations because these are more relevant to us - whether through the Israel/palestine issue (which has been a running sore for decades, and which many arab leaders have used to deflect criticism of their own governments), or becuase of our dependence on the oil from these regions.

we probably didn't think about this part of the world too much until the opec crisis in the seventies - and I expect since that time there has been growing awareness among certain elements in that region that they have considerable power - and can therefore try to force an agenda, and an awareness on our side that we have to play carefully with them. the increasing oil wealth has most likely also made the more extreme expressions of islam (by which I am not referring to terrorism) the one that has most rapidly achieved influence in many parts of the muslim world - often in conflict with the more modernist forces.

but the truth is, for ordinary muslims they just want to get on and live their lives. they don't necessarily want to change other people - at least not any more than christians do, on average. possibly less so as far as muslims in the west goes.

of course people emigrating to new countries bring part of their culture with them, they always have done and there is no reason to be any different - but if the secnd and third generation experience marginalisation; see their culture/religious origins branded as extremist/radical/terrorists - then maybe they might think they have to make a stand.

personally, I think young muslims on average are less likely to be a problem than many other groups - like many asian communities, they usually have strong family values and the kids DO tend to do well at school - or at least that has been my observation - this is often true even among the refugee communities who are often experiencing complex issues resulting from their experience prior to getting here.

WRT marginalisation - one doesn't have to feel PERSONALLY marginalised. If you saw that your race/religion/culture was being constantly demonised in the media, you may feel that you needed to make a stand too - even though you personally may be doing OK.

this is especially so wth young people who are prone to idealism.

and stupid gestures of self sacrifice for the wrong reasons.

 

Even though the 'expert' Spencer denies it, Islam has an interpretive tradition just as Christianity has.

Which point again? The one that has already been proven wrong?

We were talking about fundamentalist extremism that you apparently view as a bigger trend than I do, which in the very source you gave to support your view was described as a small fringe.

Is it possible that you're mistaking being religious with being a fundamentalist extremist? I'm much more religious than my brother is - does that make me less integrated into society?

A lot of Muslim girls are indeed influenced by Western fashion trends - such influences are a normal occurrence when cultures mix. That some of them combine their jeans with a headscarf is no sign of fundamentalism. As cassandrabandra has nicely pointed out it's more likely to be a sign of a search for identity. Personally I'm not bothered about whether people wear a headscarf or a mohawk to express themselves. Admittedly I'm not too keen on all these under-pants being exposed by a lot of young men these days, but if that's the fashion of their choosing so be it. If I ever have a son who's into that fashion, I know he'd pull his trousers down even further if I scolded him for it.
To go back to topic: one thing about Breivik that we may probably regard as certain is that he was certainly upset by the sight of headscarfs and saw them as a threat. I hope you're not a victim of that kind of intolerant block-headedness.

 

I have been thinking about what I have personally noticed about Muslims in the west. To me, it seems as if there are mainly four different "bands" of Muslims.

The first, and most common are muslims who just are muslims by upbringing/birth/cultural origins but don't really think about it too much.

these are probably the ones you see everyday, and don't even think about whether they are muslims or not. in this group, most women probably do not wear headscarves, and their "Islamism" generally comes to the fore around ramadam, mainly with family and friends. they generally buy their meat from the supermarket and dn't think about whether food is halal or not except for on special occasions/ramadan.

they are a bit like the christians who maybe go to church at christmas and easter, but never think much about religion.

the second group are a bit more religious. they will generally observe some of the things that we associate with Islam and will usually think about whether their food is halal, and will be inclined to look for that information on goods they buy. In this group, a significant number of women may wear headscarves, although some will only do so during ramadan. Often, unless they or family members do wear headscarves, or you know their country of origin, you probably won't guess that these people are muslims either.

A third group are quite religious. The women in this group will virtually always wear headscarves, and they are "traditionally muslim" in how the live their lives. They are usually very friendly, and will not miss an opportunity to sell you their brand of belief. They have a lot in common with evangelical christians in that they may either ignore it when people show they are not interested, or may cut off from people who don't want to share their truth.
in general however they are well meaning, although they can do some pretty stupid things like bring radical preachers like Sheikh Khalid Yassin (an american convert who sounds like a christian evangelist when he talks) to a mosque near you. they do tend to be susceptible to those kind of ideas (but not always), but are definitely not terrorists, and are unlikely to organise protests that would upset their adopted country.

In among this group you will often find converts as well as younger muslims who have "rediscovered" their muslim identity. They are often critical of their parents' more western values. It is often these muslims who are the most visible.

A fourth group, which in my experienced is a much smaller group, tend to remain isolated and have low trust, and thus quite negative views about westerners and non muslims. these people discourage their children from having non muslim friends, and have difficulty adjusting to living in western society. In general, they are not merely isolated within their own islamic community, but within their own cultural and linguistic community. Based on my experience with CALD communities, I don't think this is unique to muslim
groups, either - although it is probably more likely to occur in some sections of the muslim community.

one of the legacies of this is that the young men (especially) grow up quite marginalised and are more likely to get into trouble with the law. they are also more likely to (possibly at a later stage) be among that group of young, disaffected muslim men who seek out radical elements on the internet in their own search for identity.

converts and other young muslims can also be attracted to radical literature and ideas, but in all cases, its not Islam that determines how they interpret it and act on it, but personal circumstances and values.

I really wish people wouldn't assume that all muslims are fundamentalists - let alone extremists!

 

Well it certainly sounded like it. Whereas I can see the Western media playing a role in the West I can’t see this in the “emerging nations”. Take the example of Syria from the source of the quote I brought, what influence has Western media on Muslims there causing them to drift to fundamentalism? Is there any evidence that the drift is stronger where Western media is most widespread?

So you don’t believe the major factors are those mentioned in the quote I brought? You can define the conflict as between traditional culture and modernity but it is pretty specifically Islamic culture and modernity is synonymous with the West seen from your viewpoint isn’t it? For my Iranian friend modernity is something quite different and represented by Iran and the new Islamic society it is forging hampered by traditional Western decadence now in free fall. If it was really simply traditional cultures generally and not specifically Islam then why isn’t China relevant for us? We depend far more on China than ME oil. As for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I think this is much more a preoccupation in the US than Europe and yet this doesn’t appear to be reflected in perceptions of the conflict.

Yes, as the quote I brought mentioned as one of the major factors you dismissed. I think a related aspect is the injustice felt by many in the Arab world in the distribution of oil wealth in Arab society and to some extent broader than this to oil wealth in the Islamic world. Many Muslims I know regard oil as a gift from Allah and this view is exemplified by Iranians with their subsidised petrol. In this equation though it is often neglected that Western wealth has grown even faster and with it Western influence so I think there is a tendency to exaggerate this factor.

I don’t think the ordinary Muslim sees a conflict between a more fundamentalism and getting on with life. In fact I think many would argue that fundamentalism (traditional culture if you like) is necessary in order that they can just get on with their life without Western interference.

Well from where I am I can tell you that Muslim youth is a big problem and it overshadows any other group by far!

 

I think Juno sums it up pretty well

not really.

Its just called a "conservative backlash" in some places where, rather than "western values" that are seen as the problem its the "breakdown of traditional family values", "women's lib", "single mothers", "multiculturalism" "illegal immigrants", "liberal values" etc etc etc

lols ... and indeed why not?

that would be an interesting discussion!

OBL in his statement after 9.11 referred to this as being a major issue. most muslims are aware of it, and US support for Israel is one of the major criticisms of the US throughout the arab world - and possibly the muslim world as well. because the conflict is consistently presented as being with Muslims (although zionists have not been particularly positive in their regard for palestinian christians either) it feeds the perception of a "war against islam" which some people like to play on.

oil money in the arab world has contributed to the spread of hard line islam throughout poorer nations. this is well known.

I don't know about that. everywhere I have been there have been many people who are keen to embrace aspects of western culture that they like, while still retaining their own culture. and people everywhere have different nterpretations as to what is the right balance of various "traditions" and cultures

do you have some stats on that?

I remember thinking public drunkenness among young people in denmark was pretty noticeable when I was there a few years ago.

 

I'll answer that on his behalf...No, he doesn't.

 

Again please support your position by bringing an example of an Islamic cleric with a comparable divergent interpretation of Islam as Rev Klaas Hendrikse’s interpretation of Christianity. Failing this simple test you will have to concede you are wrong.

The point was that the increasing wearing of headscarves by Muslim women is evidence of the drift to fundamentalism, evidence you asked for. What point of mine has been proven wrong? That’s a pretty heavy claim.

No, we were talking about the drift to fundamentalism, linked to extremism I’ll grant you but still different. The source I gave you supports my position that there is a drift to fundamentalism which outweighs by far opposing trends.

As I’ve stated I see religion expressed as anything more than a personal belief en par with a belief in UFO’s, as an aspect of culture and this is not confusing it with fundamentalist extremism. Being more religious than your brother could hinder your integration into society just as being less religious could for your brother. It all depends on the society, the religion and how being more or less religious is practiced.

Well I disagree. The headscarf is not worn as a fashion accessory but as a religious one. The fact that even Western influenced fashion conscious Muslim girls where it only indicates how far reaching fundamentalism has become. There is nothing contradictory in a search for identity in fundamentalism! I have seen the same girls in tight jeans and headscarves a few years later march up in strength at kindergartens to demand Halal meat be served and pork banned. That’s when their way of expressing themselves becomes important for me despite being a vegetarian!

I don’t think Breivik saw headscarves as the threat you are suggesting as he regularly frequented a Muslim restaurant and had a good relation with the staff there. I do not regard myself as intolerant of religious symbols and attire, I have after all been brought up in a society where they were abundant.

 

well I would have to disagree with that!

in muslim countries it most certainly IS a fashion statement, and if it weren't - why would you account for the vast array of scarves targetted at muslim women - and the pricing of many of the more attractive ones?

this "fashion consciousness" among hijab wearers has certainly influenced women in the west who wear hijab as well!