Debunking 6 Myths About Anders Breivik

too late for edit - not to mention the many ways of wearing them and the high number of "hijab style" websites!

 

I concur..I have many female muslim friends and the notion that it is an indication of fundamentalism is, frankly, laughable.

 

of course it is!

in fact, I suspect thats part of the reason hijab has become popular among young muslim women in the west, more so than among their mothers - because it CAN be worn as a fashion statement!

 

Turkey is a Muslim country and you have just written that The Turk is more up to date than you when it comes to fashion there, being represented by Hande Yener.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlZ-S_rDtEA&feature=relmfu"]Hipnoz (Hande Yener) - YouTube[/ame]

Not much of your so fashionable hijab there!

It is a more fundamentalist Islam which has become a fashion rather than the hijab! What about the niqab I suppose that too is an article of fashion?

Which non Muslim women in the West have been influenced by this fashionable attire? I certainly don't see it here and I have some contact with the business with two fashion models in the family.

 

Fashion is a way of signaling status, expressing an approach to life. What basic signal do you think the wearer of hijab is trying to send however refined this may be by different colours and styles?

 

I wasn't claiming those wearing hijab are fundamentalists only that the increased wearing of it is evidence of a drift towards fundamentalism. There's a subtle difference.

 

Hmmmm??...The judge ain't buying it.

 

Sorry you lack the authority for that.

There are some statistics in this article:

Politidirektør: Kriminelle indvandrere det største problem

http://avisen.dk/politidirektoer-kriminelle-indvandrere-det-stoerste-p_97683.aspx

 

while I can't really comment on the statistical information contained in the article - I find it interesting that twice it references Jyllands-Posten, which is a right wing publication which is known to be hostile towards immigrants.

 

You asked for stats I gave you them. Interesting you ignore the headline! I suggest you make the effort of a Google translation, here is one part:

The young criminal immigrants are now 'The biggest and overriding problem in the Danish capital, "said Police Director Hanne Bech Hansen to Jyllands-Posten.

Are you raising doubt about this statement from the chief of police on the basis of JP alleged position on immigration? The first reference to JP concerned the stats from legal sources, are you rasing doubt here to because they came via JP? If so I can aassure you that had JP cooked the figures or misquoted the chief of police there would have been a stink.

Now do you have any real reason at all not to believe me and the Chief of police?

As for young drinking, it is true that Denmark tops the record for young drinking however this does not reflect substancially in antisocial behaviour. Drinking is part of Danish culture going back to viking times and interestingly those young who drink actually go on to be successful.

 

google translate isn't all that reliable.

I am always curious about the sourcing of articles I read on this forum. I am also well aware that even though the police chief may be interviewed, the "bites" published can be used to push a newspaper's agenda.

have you seen what ENAR has to say about the media in denmark?

 

Sorry Juno doesn’t mention Syria and has problems remembering the issue. Now do you an answer to my question or do you retract your claim?

Not really to which part, the whole? The problem is that this isn’t limited by either time nor geography so calling it a conservative backlash is a gross understatement at best. The gap is more than that between generations, its between millennia! There’s a world of difference between a parent not approving of a daughter’s chosen single mother lifestyle, and modern condemnation of stoning and the unwillingness to condemn it by your model moderate Muslim! Neither is anyone disputing that the list you bring whether “traditional family values” or “womens lib” are all Western.

Because you are essentially wrong that’s why not! You can discuss it quietly with yourself and see what you can concoct to try to save your position!

Yes but the point is that if this was a major cause then it should reflect in a difference in a perception of the conflict with regards to Europe and US and yet this is not the case. I think it is the other way around and that the Israel/Palestinian conflict has been made a useful rallying point deliberately left open and bleeding, which is also why the Islamic world has taken a patent out on it. Why only add Christians and not Jews?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=YBNMDjj5LKc

The fact is that what feeds the perception of a “war against Islam” is the almost total lack of opposition by what could be considered as moderate Muslims to what is happening in their own culture. Again I draw your attention to the contrast in response to stoning, abuse of hostages including executions literally under the banner of Quranic quotes etc. and Rushdie, the Mohammed caricatures etc. This is what really captures the mind not some supposed obscure agenda pushing by rightwing racists.

However you deny this any major role as I pointed out.

So expand a little. Which aspects of Western culture do they like and embrace and which do they not and is it real? For example I have been at pains to point out to Abu Sina and FreeBahrain that their embracing of democracy is not real. Yes, I have also brought up the issue of balance here however the issue here is whether “just getting on with life” is balanced by fundamentalism. Do you have anything to back this assertion up with or are you dropping it?

 

No but it can give a good idea as in this case even without my limited help.

Yes, naturally being source critical is essential of serious debate. However the source of the stats was the Danish legal authorities not JP and the source apportioning the size of the problem was the police chief not JP. JP in both cases was merely passing these on.

Yes naturally however if anyone is aware that "bites" published can be used to push a newspaper's agenda it is the chief of police especially on such a touchy subject. Now back to the issue, do you bow in the face of support for my contention or do you choose to believe both of us are pushing some agenda and therefore not credible?

Yes I am aware of ENAR's perspective on Danish media. Do you think they have an agenda to be pushed?

 

I think your single minded fear of and obsession with Islam means you fail to understand things in the broader context.

are you aware, for example that the same things were said about southern Italians by northern italians in the 1950's as what you say about Muslim immigrants?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3016/is_2_28/ai_n56277606/pg_7/

and that in the 1950's "wogs" (Italian, greek, portuguese and yugoslav migrants) in australia were often regarded in much the same way as you regard muslim immigrants?

I knew italian girls who were not allowed out AT ALL unless accompanied by a male relative, and I can tell you some pretty nasty stories about some of the cases I am aware of . Is this normal for Italians? no - no more than the kind of narrow, straightjacketed view you have of muslims is not relevant to most ordinary muslims.

you are being quite arrogant to suggest to Abu Sina and Free Bahrain that their embracing of democracy is not real.

I wonder if yours is - or is it only democracy for the descendants of vikings (funny you never mention the ethnically danish bikie gangs that I keep seeing referred to when I look at criminality in denmark).

or is it that you also are an immigrantm, and therefore feel your own position is not strong enough for you to be comfortable sharing the benefits of living in denmark with other immigrants?

and as I have said numeorus times - the criticism you make of muslims can ne applied to other immigrant groups.

your ignoring that sends a clear message of what your agenda is.

 

tyrerik how old are you?

if the interview was originially done with JP it would have been framed in a way that would appeal to their readership.

It is also clear what your agenda is, and I ddo not believe that you can be reliably counted on for presenting balanced information.

as a single issue poster who posts here ONLY to denigrate muslims, you can't expect me to see you in any other way.

to me, you are DCC light.

why do they say what they do?

 

Cassandrabandra you clearly indicate that you have nothing left with which to support your objections to my position. Again it is disappointing that just as with the claim that terrorism is always political you do not concede when you are shown to be wrong but instead divert the discussion, cloud the issues and become condescending with thinly veiled slights.

Thanks for the discussion, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Jyllands-Posten.... has been criticized as being anti-migrant after a few controversial incidents.

In 2002 the Danish Council of the Press, criticised the newspaper for breaching its regulations on race while reporting on three Somalis charged with a crime.[16] The relevant regulation was: "Any mention of family relations, occupation, race, nationality, faith or relationship to an organisation ought to be avoided, unless this has a direct relevance to the case,"

Jyllands-Posten published a story alleging asylum fraud by resident Palestinian refugees in Denmark. This contributed to the electoral success of Anders Fogh Rasmussen on November 20, 2001, whose political party campaigned for reduced immigration. The story was found to be unsupported and resulted in the sacking of the editor-in-chief Ulrik Haagerup on December 12, 2001 (Politiken, Berlingske Tidende, Information, B.T., December 13, 2001). However, Jyllands-Posten maintained that the dismissal of Haagerup had nothing to do with his responsibility for the articles in question (editorial on December 16, 2001). According to Weekendavisen, a newspaper that pretty much shares the political line of Jyllands-Posten, the real reason for Haagerup's dismissal was a disagreement about the employment strategy (December 21, 2001).

The 2004 report on Denmark by the European Network Against Racism (ENAR), an organisation of NGOs funded partly by the European Commission, concluded that the Danish media devoted an excessive proportion of their time to the problems posed by immigrants, and most often Islamic immigrants, while often ignoring the problems that these immigrants face. According to the ENAR report, out of 382 JP articles on immigrants, 212 were negative, a share similar to other Danish newspapers. The ENAR report holds newspapers such as Jyllands-Posten to blame for the rise of the anti-immigrant right-wing in Danish politics.[17]

A journalist employed at Jyllands-Posten won a second prize in 2005 in an EU wide competition for journalists for diversity and against discrimination. The compilation of several articles "The Integration Paper" by Orla Borg was awarded the second prize.[18]

[edit] Pro-IsraelOn 5 January 2008, the newspaper published an editorial expressing the views of the newspaper where they give unreserved support for Israel’s war in Gaza. The newspaper starts by telling its readers they are happy that those in the international community who are important are not condemning the Israeli attacks on Gaza. The newspaper continues with saying that the war is not complicated at all and blames Hamas and Palestinians for the Israeli attacks. Newspaper also states that Israel should avoid killing civilians but continues “But war is war. Civilians have always died in wars.” [19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten

Clearly Jyllands-Posten is not an objective and therefore reliable source.

 

You'd better let those judges in the EU competition know so they can withdraw Orla Borg's prize!

 

I have plenty, but its like talking to a brick wall.

you are so steeped in your narrow, bigoted view of all muslims, that you are incapable of discussing the issue objectively.

I have had extensive experience with people in immigrant communities, I have spent considerable time in several muslim countries, I have often had contact with international visitors from Muslim countries - and I am well aware that your claims are the product of prejudice, nothing more.

if you feel I am condescending, then you are most likely correct. I don't respect bigotry and prejudice.

 

exactly - which is why it being regferenced in that article was a warning that teh source may not be the most objective available. Regardless of who was being interviewed, if it was a an article originating in JP there was a pretty good chance that it would be ... selective reporting at best.

a lot of the information I have seen re criminal elements in Danmark refer to the biker gangs as well as the ethnic gangs .. and the ethnic gangs are not necessarily identified as muslim.

why is this not being discussed?

why is it only muslims that ater the target of tyrerik's (and JP's) disquiet?

 

So the existence of a dutch theologian who does not believe in a personalized God and would probably make a better Alevite than a Christian proves that Islam is not as diverse as Christianity?
Don't you think this argument is a ridiculous grasp at straws?

I did even concede that growing extremism is problematic, I just questioned that it is the predominant drift among young immigrants.

Your argument for that is weak to say the least. Even if we take on board your assumption that the percentage of young Muslim women wearing a headscarf is dramatically increasing, it is an even wilder assumption that wearing a headscarf is necessarily a sign of fundamentalism. I get the increasing feeling that you regard as 'fundamentalist' anybody who believes in God and from that point of view you may of course be right (even though I would assume that these girls believed in God even before they covered their hair and that the covering hair bit is more of a defiant identity thing in a society that discriminates against Muslims rather than a sign of true fundamentalist piety)

So I take it that your fear of fundamentalist extremism is connected to your fear of the unknown. Having grown up with churchbells you've got used to that kind of 'ufo-worship', but the call of a Muezzin would disturb you and your ideas of 'cultural unity'.

Again you're feeding my impression that being religious and being fundamentalist is one and the same thing for you.

May I ask whether you also believe that every teenager who ever wore a Che Guevara shirt has actually read his writings and has an actual clue what 'the revolution' is about?

And where's the problem with Halal meat to be served in kindergartens with Muslim children in it? It's not as if secular or christian children weren't allowed to eat it. I'm a vegetarian myself and to be honest I find it extremely impolite when people who know that I am invite me to a dinner-party but then don't cater for that 'special-need' of mine, so that I have to nibble on dry potatoes while everybody else gets stuffed.

Come on: you're only one step away from telling us that Breivik was really a flaming multiculturalist and had sympathies for the Labour party. Let's keep it real, shall we?

 

The difference is so subtle that I pretty much fail to see it.

 

Maybe this guy is a **********? They have many of the same beliefs.

 

While sharing other posters' reservations about a newspaper that refused to publish caricatures of Jesus because it might upset people only to later publish caricatures of Mohammed without giving a toss about upsetting others, I don't even necessarily doubt this statement of the Chief of police.

What I do doubt though is that the young criminals who give him trouble are religious fundamentalists, or even religiously conservative enough to never drink alcohol, pray five times a week and run to mosque every friday. If you forced me to categorize people I'd say it's much more likely that said criminal youngsters' role models aren't Imams, but their favourite gangsta rappers.
So how does this article support your argument?

 

Your reservations are based upon a very biased portrayal of perfectly normal editorial practice at any newspaper.

It is true that several years prior to the publishing of the Mohammed caricatures the paper had rejected caricatures of Jesus which had been submitted to the editor as humour content. It is also true that this was partly on the basis of potentially upsetting some of the readership but the main reason was because they did not live up to standard, they were not considered funny enough. This is perfectly normal editorial practice with unsolicited work received for publication. A paper like JP only accepts a small fraction of such work for publication just as a large employer only accepts a small fraction of applicants for jobs.

The Mohammed caricatures were not unsolicited work but commissioned from selected artists who were given a free hand. Their work was not in the interest of humour but as part of a serious story covering self censorship when dealing with Islam. Some of the artists as might be expected used satire and as always with satire there will be some readers who are upset. However this is acceptable in the wider interests of free debate and expression considering the topic being covered. Again perfectly normal editorial practice.

If I were to have my funny caricatures to your local paper rejected on the grounds that they weren’t funny enough and may even upset some of the readers would that give you the same reservations about it if they then published other funny caricatures of the same nature in connection with some story?

I might add that the man who "broke" this story was Ahmed Akkari, one of the infamous imams behind the caricature episode. He used to live not far from me and I knew him since he was a boy who made a TV appeal for him and his family to be granted humanitarian asylum. As an adult I have seen him kicking Muslim girls from behind as they walked on public pavements without wearing the hijab. I guess he is just a fashion freak!

The chief of police was a women, so now we’re quits! The issue was not whether fundamentalists were a problem but whether Muslims were and here the comparison was made to Danish young drinkers and biker gangs. Here is an interesting article on the subject of the connection between “these young criminals”, fundamentalists and extremist:

What is certain, however, is that there are clear precedents of individuals radicalised in British prisons who went on to attempt to carry out terrorist attacks: Richard Reid the "shoe bomber" and 21 July 2005 plot leader Muktar Said Ibrahim were both radicalised while serving prison terms for petty crime, and a significant number of other individuals who have been incarcerated on terrorism charges have also spent some time in prison.

source

Do you have the same reservations about this newspaper?

Incidentally the man who “broke” this story was Ahmed Akkari, a man who lived not far from me and who I knew from when he was a boy who made a TV appeal for him and his family to be granted humanitarian asylum. He was one of the infamous imams behind the whole affair. I have seen him as an adult man kicking Muslim girls from behind when they walked on the pavement without wearing hijab. Perhaps he is the one you should have reservations about or do you think he is just a fashion freak?