Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by zacariah88, Feb 22, 2023.

  1. zacariah88

    zacariah88 Newly Registered

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    He still wanted us to obey him and be in the Garden to be in paradise forever bu came the enemy ( the devil) and our paraidise ruin.
    No, God-relation with man isn't like an A.I. been created or A mamal been born to be like deer or leopard and go their natural way and live life in the circle of life. Our relation was never for the animals and us to be in paradise and no animal kill each other. We were created to live and be servants of the most high our purpose was another. He made us to choose and gave us freewill since the beggining to live but those who know what destiny is and what future,past, and present know you live you born and die say you don't have freewill your life is planned already like animals and you live in the box. You can't get out, Here scientist and rational humainze come to conlfict with both clashes and realize that choosing is not real !


    No, people you can choose and your decison change everything but you do not have the intelligence to be humble and to wise know, our paths are can change and predetermination and God's soveriegn and out his soveriegn do exist and have their been in destiny what he wrote changed ? Yes, God writes everything we do and writes what your going to do. But god allows probabilities billions to one that things can change and destiny can change people. We have Elijah, Huldah, and Moses who change the future of Israel and show probabilities do exist and do happen. And that's part of outside the box that they chaneg the destiny and what God told them to do with his words and authority.


    Know there is born to existence and consciuonsess in this world that we are born and theologist , writtters , and greek thinkers, german thinkers like Nietzche, socrates, aristotles, and Einstein say to leave that of A born baby consciouness is original and shows only good and A way that existence is based on human efforts not true our existence is not base on our efforts. And originality is given by our consciousness and perception but know they are wrong. This is why an error remember in this discussion man cannot know evil if not for good and evil tree it is important that we realize if an A.I. created will not undertand what God established things. So know there is A difference.


    1.human created A.I. and it has freedom and born crisp clean

    2. God-man realationship we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey but letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did. Know this the importance of freedom we must have the relation Jesus had with God and align our will with his and originaly like he wanted and know you have freedom to do only good and it is how perfect freedom is with him and know it is better than any doubt modern thinkers like Einstien, Max Planck, Aristotles and Socrates would argue about destiny predetermination, future , past and present.


    Be in God's path by putting yor will to his and avoid this conflicts.
     
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  2. zacariah88

    zacariah88 Newly Registered

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    freewill existed before adam and eve and the devil had it he chosed to rebelled. You saw it exist does the plan of G-d involves love and choosing to be free. Choose to put you will in G-d's will becuase it cause you conflict like everyone that it's impossible don't be in the box that is fate and destiny and what you decide is cannot be without god already planning it ?
    The plan of God of giving thanks always is different of how he put the laws of physics and laws of probabilities in the world don't go to conlfict everything is possible. Know that mistake was made with moses and huldah and eliajh shows that fate can be changed. But still to pray and pray and doing the impossible to change your fate your destiny of being shoemaker or being into a lawyer is possible if you want. G-d has moved the universe and the fate of our humanity in wars with assyrians when he sent an angel, he makes miracles everyday and moves time and universe. ungratefulness is what all say because they have cobnflict say it's impossible God already plan for you everything but he's plan of god about been thankful even when bad things and been faithful and obeying him in good and bad times isn't about the future beenalready planned and impossible to avoid his soveriegn and he chosed the path already !

    1. what he planned premptively in how the universe wrks and moves the sun and you have night and day and you age and you were bron in A planet God wrote that. physics work and you do everyday on works and buy groceries and food he establish laws.

    2.probablitlies that everything changes and destiny moves constantly even when you don't know and G-d gives you every day to change you lifespan choose a better path by eating vegetables and changing your course of life not making the bad decison going to war and decided to go have job in kentucky and you change routes. everyday people the universe makes cracks in its fabric of how the destiny and chances are made by faith by believing by praying know God hears ya and God moves it all. Everything is possible God has used jews and did incredible things like making kings out of ordinary people makins miracles and making man into prophets and moving the universe for them. God does more thinsg we don't know he does for us becuase he loves us.

    3.Don't be like the scientists who say everything is already planned he is a dictator god because he already decided everything for us and didn't let us choose. know if you decided things out of nowhere and you popped out of the planet and God ceases to exist you became God you wouldn't know what was the last things God did, then you will decide everything and you will make so many errors because you can't do what God does, and realese finally he was right and he put things all for A reason. Those scientist agnostic thinks if they were God decided everything realized how hard God life is deciding everything and he gave you all but you made the bad decisions in life. You had all the freedom you woulnd't know what to do with it and just make mistakes and if you were free to do everything and be A god you wouldn't find true love you woulnd't do things you just be the same individual looking for things and think having all the freedom and you decided everything you woulnd't find that special thing God has for youa t the end in heaven. You will be lost and still be unperfect those scientist just blame and if they had everything they will just mess up and realize didn't go their way either and mess up.
     
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  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if there is a heaven, does one have freewill in heaven.... a Christian was telling me that you don't remember people that go to hell when in heaven as it would make them sad to know their loved one was being burning in hell, if that's true, it means you're brainwashed to be happy, thus no freewill
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  4. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    You really need to read more. :lol:

    See up there, man has already tasted the tree of Knowledge, to know good and evil.

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes. That tasting was NOT GOD'S WILL according to the Bible.

    In fact, it is recognized by most of Christianity as being the original sin that humans (Adam being the model) think THEY are qualified to judge what is sin, when God clearly reserved that for himself.
     
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  6. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    The original sin is eating from the tree of Good and Evil. Once done, it cannot be undone.
    As for me, I don't think it's a sin but obviously God thinks otherwise.
    But the whole story of Adam and Eve has a hidden meaning and cannot be taken literally. ;)

    Or herself. We don't know for sure that God is a male. ;)
     
  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Christian theologians tend to believe that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is Gods, representing his authority to judge.

    When Adam ate from that tree the meaning is that man took God's place as judge of right and wrong.
     
  8. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Pardon me but no, he did not. Before eating from the tree Adam didn't even comprehend the concept of good and evil. And didn't know that eating from it is evil, aka sin.
    I'm sure if Jesus was there at that time, He would have sighed "Please, forgive them Father, they are not aware of what they are doing". ;)
     
  9. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think that's not really how the allegory goes. In the allegory, god stated that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was his alone. Adam (and Eve) knew that.

    The point isn't how well Adam thoroughly understood that.

    It's more of a description of flawed human nature - humans have an inbred proclivity, the original nature, to see themselves as judges of mankind in areas where God is the judge.
     
  10. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the only thing - Adam and Eve didn't know that breaking God's rules is bad, before they knew what is good and what is bad.

    And who's fault is it? If a clay pot is crooked and has some defects, is it pot's fault or the potter's fault? ;)
     
  11. Canell

    Canell Well-Known Member

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    Mankind didn't exist at that point, mind you.
    But you are generally right - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree: as God's children Adam and Eve can be judges too. On their own, non grander scale, of course. ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2023
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It's an allegory. It identifies the fundamental sin of humans is that we tend to see ourselves as the judge of sin.
     
  13. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    So God is NOT omniscient.
    Most god believers, christians anyway, think their god is omniscient.

    Are you one who thinks that?
     
  14. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    I'm one who believes God is omniscient. There is nothing contradictory between God's sovereignty and man's free will.
     
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  15. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    No idea what omniscient,
    omniscient
    adjective
    om·ni·scient äm-ˈni-shənt


    Synonyms of omniscient


    1
    : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
    an omniscient author

    the narrator seems an omniscient person who tells us about the characters and their relations—
    Ira Konigsberg


    2
    : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
    the omniscient God

    ...
    Has to do with sovereignty,
    sovereignty
    noun
    sov·er·eign·ty ˈsä-v(ə-)rən-tē

    -vərn-tē,
    also ˈsə-

    variants or less commonly sovranty
    plural sovereignties also sovranties
    Synonyms of sovereignty


    1
    a
    : supreme power especially over a body politic
    b
    : freedom from external control : autonomy
    c
    : controlling influence

    2
    : one that is sovereign
    especially : an autonomous state



    omnisciently adverb
     
  16. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    Why are you listing all these definitions? They're words you and I understand about ourselves and our world but nothing whatever to do with the omniscience and sovereignty of God. He is the creator and we the creations. We have no more ability to understand God outside the world He created for us than Tom Sawyer has to understand Mark Twain.
     
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I'm intrigued by compatibilist views. But if free will and determinism are incompatible, and if God designed determinism to be the case, then he's a psychopath, at best.
     
  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Compatibilism like this is by far the most interesting option in my mind
     
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  19. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Definitions is how we communicate effectively as humans.

    I understand when it comes to religion, people are free to make up whatever they want. But that just leads to thousands of different religions and several thousands different beliefs, and millions of interpretations of said beliefs.

    Bottom line, omniscient and sovereign are not related.
    Omniscient, as I showed you is...
    1
    : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
    an omniscient author

    the narrator seems an omniscient person who tells us about the characters and their relations—
    Ira Konigsberg


    2
    : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
    the omniscient God

    But if you just want to make thing up as this goes along, go ahead. It certainly doesn't make you opinion about free will noteworthy.
     
  20. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're right. How can we understand a god that 13 billion years ago started a Universe that is still expanding. 9 billion years later he created an earth from the debris of the universe. After a few billion years he created a being to inhabit an earth which, because of the way he created it, is still so unstable that his creation is subject to death in their thousands most years. As original sin supposedly came with the creation of man, a few billion years after the earths creation, sin has nothing to do with the killing of men.

    God was 'created' by man when he could not understand the world around him.

    Og, the chief caveman, got up one early spring morning. He threw back his fur covering and woke Mrs Og to prepare breakfast. As he exited the cave a large amount of snow fell from the above hillside. Not understanding gravity he looked up to see who/what had thrown the snow. He saw nothing. It was just one of those things. The same happened the next day. He still saw nothing/no-one. On the third day he had had enough and went searching for who/what had thrown the snow. He found nothing.
    He decided to appease the unknown so he left a large piece of meat outside. On the next morning no snow fell on him and the meat was gone. And so the first offering to the 'unknown', and the idea of 'god'. The fact that we know about gravity and that snow melts and slides down the mountain in the spring is due to many millenia of learning.

    The above is true. It was handed down our family from our great, great 100000x removed Uncle Chimp who lived in a palm tree near Og's cave.
     
  21. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like you're describing an ageless universe created without a creator, just existing with all the combined substance, forces, and laws that are manifested in the existing universe. Humans are nothing more than a random collection of atoms (wherever they came from) that have a temporary existence of no particular value.

    I think it requires a far greater faith to hold your view than mine.
     
  22. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Everything is made of atoms. How the Universe came into being is still being discussed with the Big Bang the likely beginning. There are other theories - including that of a creator god. Science is beginning to discover many things relating to the universe that do not need a god.
    What value has the existence of man to the world, except in his own mind. In fact man is gradually destroying the world which would continue to exist without him. I don't need faith to hold my view. As with all animals we come into the world and leave it. If man destroyed himself another animal would dominate. Would they believe in a god?

    If reality is a religion, then it is mine.
    You believe because you need to. I don't need that.
     
  23. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    It requires no faith to believe in what has not been shown to be real.
    Evolution has been shown to be real.
    Cosmic "evolution" has been shown to be real.
    What happened before that is unknown.
     
  24. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    How and why did the big bang happen? Non-believers think they will eventually understand our material world. They may someday understand the "how" of the universe but will never understand the "why." That is a serious problem for secular science.
     
  25. mswan

    mswan Well-Known Member

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    And will always remain unknown to secular scientists for whom the entirety of our world can be explained in material terms.
     

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