Donald Trump indicted on 7 counts in classified documents probe

Got it, in your opinion it does not inhibit planning by the Executive if they are aware that anything related to the planning could be subject to scrutiny later. I disagree, and imo, not permitting discretion in documentation of exclusively Executive duties (no public function), endangers the nation's security, far more so than the possibility of an ex-president going rogue.

 

Where do you get the idea that Joe Biden had to "sign off" on this?

 

So if Taylor came forward, and said that he remembered Clinton discussing classified information with so and so on those tapes, then the FBI could get a warrant to seize the tapes? Or would it STILL be Clinton's discretion?

 

You actually think that a PREVIOUS President could prohibit a CURRENT President from viewing records from the previous administration?

Sure it may inhibit planning knowing that the records may be subject to later scrutiny but that's a GOOD thing. I don't want Presidents trying things like Iran Contra or even Operation Fast and Furious because they don't think that anyone is going to be able to see the planning that went into it.

 

No it's more like me claiming my neighbor has my property, the police obtaining a warrant, entering my neighbor's house on my accusations, only to find out that there is an ownership question as to the property that initiated the entire action.

 

Presidential Records (which is the only thing being discussed here, classification is not part of the discussion) are defined by the PRA

(2) The term "Presidential records" means documentary materials, or any reasonably segregable portion thereof, created or received by the President, the President's immediate staff, or a unit or individual of the Executive Office of the President whose function is to advise or assist the President, in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, or other official or ceremonial duties of the President.

Tapes recorded by Taylor would NOT be "documentary materials" whose function was "to advise or assist the President in the course of conducting activities which relate to or have an effect upon the carrying out of the constitutional, statutory, of other official or ceremonial duties of the President"

Now, if Clinton had conversations of a classified nature with someone I sincerely doubt Taylor would have been allowed to record them. But unless you have some kind of evidence that he did, then you have nothing.

 

Yeah, you see that the police would not be able to obtain a warrant in that situation. You merely claiming he has your property is insufficient.

But since you are trying to use this as a comparison of what happened to Trump, NARA was not merely claiming that Trump had records...they had sufficient proof that a judge signed off on the warrant requested by the DOJ.

 

Not "trying". I'm saying things will never be "mentioned". It inhibits planning.

And I've said from the beginning, Biden is the Chief Executive, and if it's his discretion that he needs the documents, he can get the documents. But there is no crime.

 

It inhibits planning of things that you should not want a president planning

If a President has qualms about planning something because the next President will have access to the records of that planning then probably it's something he shouldn't be planning in the first place.

But all of that aside, you think that Executive Privilege prohibits a CURRENT President from accessing select documents from the PREVIOUS President because that previous president didn't want anyone scrutinizing what he was doing and/or planning? That's insane.

For a President to able to do his job he needs access to ALL pertinent information...that includes anything the previous President did that might pertain.

 

The authors of the PRA were aware of classified documents. If they intended that the POTUS had ZERO discretion when it comes to classified documents, the law would have mentioned that exception.

And I didn't say I had evidence. I asked what if. Could the DOJ take action to find out what was on those tapes if they got a report that he discussed classified information on them?

 

The PRA has NOTHING to do with classification. It gives the President ZERO discretion on ANY record that fits the criteria of "Presidential Record". I can think of no circumstance in which a classified document would not ALSO be a Presidential Record. Can you?

And no, the DOJ could not issue a warrant to "find out what is on the tapes". It MIGHT be able to get a warrant to take the tapes, IF (and only IF) they had sufficient evidence to show that there was classified material on them. (And any such evidence would probably let the DOJ know what was on the tapes)

But for the sake of argument let's say the DOJ did get such information then what would probably happen is exactly what happened in the case when Trump tried to declare that the records sized by the warrant were his personal records. A "Special Master" would be set up to review the tapes and then he would make the determination if there were classified material on them.

 

There should be no limiting of a POTUS's Executive planning. For example, if things kicked off with China, I may want to ask how difficult would it be to blow a couple of key dams on the Yellow or Yangtze Rivers, and how many would it kill? Or I may need to ask my advisors something that could make me look stupid. If I know others could be scrutinizing everything about this planning session, it will inhibit the process.

 

NARA requested the DOJ look into the documents, but the DOJ had to get Joe Biden to sign off on it first so Joe went to the "special access request" to "request" the FBI look into it before the FBI could get involved, which directly resulted in the corrupt weaponized FBI raiding Biden's political opponent Trump's home.

 

You are incorrect, a judge has already ruled that a POTUS has "wide discretion" to determine what is, and what is not a presidential record. Are we not to consider federal court rulings as supplementing the law of the land anymore, or because it's Trump we can ignore this fundamental aspect of our system?

 

Sorry, it just doesn't work that way.
For example we already know that Trump has asked some REALLY stupid questions in his meetings. We also know that Trump discussed some illegal things in his meetings. We know this because either (A) the current President waived Executive Privilege on the documents or (B) a Judge ruled that executive privilege did not apply.

 

Once again, where do you get the idea that Joe Biden had to "sign off" on it?

 

You mean it doesn't work that way with Trump.

And by the way, it's very common to discuss illegal things with lawyers. That's why you need a lawyer: to find out if something is legal. What's not normal is crapping all over attorney client privilege.

 

Also, why would asking how many a military operation might kill inhibit a President from asking the question even if KNEW that the decision making process might be later scrutinized. Questions like that are questions I WANT a President asking.

 

It doesn't work that way with ANY President.

 

Trump didn't write the plan. If he did, then yes, it would fall under the PRA. Though it would still be an official document, not a personal document. It would go to the archives, eventually to be made public.

This was an AGENCY document. It wouldn't ever be in NARA custody. It wouldn't go into the library. It wouldn't have been made public. So your concerns here are meaningless.

[qiuote]Wouldn't I be more willing to ask generals and experts dumb questions, or suggest actions that will kill many people if I knew I had the ability to say, "Nothing said here leaves this room"?

By removing Trump's discretion as to what documents are his, prosecutor Jack is establishing a precedent that will inhibit the Chief Executive's ability to plan and make decisions on ANYTHING, not just war plans.[/quote]That's just flatly untrue. Agency documents have never been personal Presidential documents. Ever. Smith didn't come up with that, nor does it mean anything remotely like for what you are claiming. And "Nothing said here leaves this room" IS how this is supposed to work with classified agency documents. TRUMP was the one who made sure it left the room. Literally.

Yes. They do. They are called laws.

I hope she does not adhere to your theory that Presidents are almighty kings to be held above the law even after they leave office.

 

from the NARA to Trump's lawyer... Trump's home was raided at the request of the incumbent president.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22186883/archivist-letter-on-trump-documents.pdf




per court documents
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2022/08/48-1.pdf
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.64.0_3.pdf

case 9:22-cv-81294-amc
page 3

 

It is a fact that the knowledge of what you say doesn't stay with you WILL inhibit what you say; you may not say something that would make you look weak, callous, or stupid. And since what would be inhibiting your words is A LAW that prevents you from keeping it secret, that would be Congress inhibiting the performance of Executive duties.

This case should be thrown out on separation of powers. And then there is a host of other issues not the least include the fact that you and I know that he had war plans on Iran (although we are still waiting to see such document listed as evidence in an indictment), and we know what his storage room looks like.

 

These were AGENCY documents. They wouldn't be made public, EVER, unless a President declassified them and made them public. But, hey Trump says he DID declassify them, so that means they ARE legally public . . . you know, assuming he's not lying.

 

Congressional laws cannot bind the POTUS in his performance of constitutional duties.

And if Miley wrote the plan, it's Trump's plan. Miley is Trump's subordinate.

 

Congressional laws cannot bind the POTUS in his performance of constitutional duties.

And if Miley wrote the plan, it's Trump's plan. Miley is Trump's subordinate.[/QUOTE]
Agency documents have not ever been personal documents. It wasn't his personal property.