Exxon Mobil employed General Suharto's henchman to protect it's interests in Indonesia. Mass graves discovered in Aceh.
I'm not surprised. An employer doesn't have to actually tell those whom they hire to commit muder to be responsible for it. Exxon paid these soldiers to do a job, and it was obvious those soldiers were going to do whatever it took to get the job done.
This is where it pays to do more research. I did a bit of searching just now, and could find no corraberation to this story. The photo only exists on Mother Jones, the only references I could find to "Mass Graves" from reliable sources all date to the Indonesian Tsunami (which devistated Aceh), and for almost 30 years this very region was the center of an islamic insurgency that was the very reason that the Government was involved in the security here in the first place. As usual, you give a very slanted view of what happened, with little to no corraberation, entirely of propaganda type information, and no real information. I invite others to do some research into "Aceh", "mass graves", and the "Free Aceh Movement".
You deny mass graves in Indonesia under Suharto? I guess it's time to dip into the National Security Archives slant. As usual? How many times have I shut you up? May I should showcase each time.
BBC News: Aceh villagers find mass graves BBC News: Exxon 'helped torture in Indonesia' One of the few times I use a left wing source and he says "as usual" with my "slanted" views.
Yea, and let's do some subjective reading about this subject, shall we? Hmmm, seems like that is simply a dangerous area to operate in. A civil war, religious sepratism, the leader of the seperatist movement urging her followers to stop the use of violence, firefights, and wow, image this, the government sending in soldiers to protect the oil fields that they themselves own through the government oil company. And yes, all of these quotes came from your very own BBC references. And finally, you seem to make that these are sudden headline reports, but they are each over 10 years old. So where is the follow-up? Where is the proof that what you say what really happened? After all, in 11-13 years, surely these claims have been proven, have they not? This is why I love a certain TV show called "Bull(*)(*)(*)(*)". All you do is throw out biased propaganda, and hope that everybody is stupid enough to just suck it up, not even bothering to read the label on the koolaid. Myself, I look at things subjectively, to see what is really there, not the spoonfed coprolite you (and others) seem to want me to believe. So come on now, surely you can provide proof to your claims of decade old mass graves, right? You can give some kind of UN investigation, detained forensic reports, or something else, right? Or is all you can do is regurgitate decade old bull(*)(*)(*)(*) with absolutely nothing new?
I think what I love most about this is the implication that Horhey has not even mentioned. A lot of this seems to revolve around the claim that Exxon is paying government troops to commit these atrocities. Yet, the oil and gas company that actually does all of this is a nationalized petrolium company, owned and operated by the government of Indonesia. This is something that should be obvious, when the government owns and operates something, of course it is going to have it's own soldiers protecting that resource. You generally don't see US troops providing security for oil companies in the US. But in countries where the companies are owned by the government itself, those are vital assets for the nation's security and economy, so of course they are going to be having soldiers protect them. And trust me, this is not unusual. http://www.aljazeera.com/video/africa/2011/09/2011986514332297.html http://ogmesecurity.com/2012/10/04/army-destroys-illegal-refinery-in-narino/ http://reporters365.com/highlights/...rs-destroy-illegal-refineries-in-niger-delta/ http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/___Army__Coast_Guard_to_secure_refineries-139491628.html And guess what, the oldest of my reports is only 14 months old, the majority have been within the last 6 months. However, as to when this happened, obviously it happened some time in the early to mid 1990's, since the graves were apparently found in 1999. That is why I have challenged him for some kind of follow-up. It seems that in this day and age, surely there can be some kind of definitive forensic evidence to this if it is well over a decade old. Oh, I forgot, it has all been covered up because it is a conspiracy.
The Arun Project is one of the largest natural gas projects in the world. http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Oil_watch/DeadlyDrilling_Aceh.html The natural gas field happens to be located in Aceh, where an armed resistance organized under the banner of the Free Aceh Movement has long been seeking independence. From 1989 to 1998, the Indonesian government designated Aceh as a Military Operation Area, with thousands of troops assigned to defeat the armed independence force. Human rights organizations report that more than 1,000 people were killed during the period of military rule. After longtime Indonesian dictator Suharto fell from power in 1998, the new president, Abdurrahman Wahid offered to permit at the people of Aceh to vote on independence in a referendum, but then subsequently withdrew the offer. Violence in Aceh soon escalated to its present levels. The lawsuit charges that ExxonMobil is complicit in the long-running human rights
And that bold part is mostly what I see here. Notice, this is not any kind of criminal trial, where absolute evidence is brought forward, it is a lawsuit for monitary damages. And as any lawyer will tell you, you go after the deepest pockets. Fall and break your arm in your local fast food place? Why, you don't sue the person who spilled the drink. You sue the resteraunt, the corporation that sold them the franchise, maybe even the maker of the tile who sold a product that is slippery when soda is spilled on it. Welcome to Litigation 101. I would be much more interested in these claims if they were say from the UN, or some kind of International fact-finding organization that tries to determine what happened. But no, this is the claims in a lawsuit, and of course they are going to tie in the deep pockets, to try and get the most money out of it they can. And once again, this article is from 2001. What new evidence has come out since then? What is the status of this case? All of this throwing around of old news is kinda like the Old Grey Lady. They can push out a paper with the headline "Man rapes monkey in front of children!", and will later print a retraction or clarification weeks or months later, buried on page 20. If somebody wants me to take this really seriously, they need to come up with a lot more solid facts then an 11 year old lawsuit where the claims are all from the plaintif. Because surely in 11 years some kind of factual proof has been revealed if this is true. Facts, not just allegations.
I think the point is, you don't employ mass killers. I dont see why Mushroom doesnt get it. Suharto's men routinely killed Indonesian citizens for questioning his policies. So I shouldnt have shared this because there hasnt been a verdict yet? Right on point? He's saying this shouldnt have been shown because there's been no verdict yet.
Wow, look at that. Seems to me those allegations of the mass graves (first found in 1999) would more then likely be during the Clinton Administration, not the Bush Administration. This is the reason why I end up rejecting 98.9% of your posts my friend. You have absolutely no objectivity in any of your posts, ever. You consistantly dig out decades old coprolite, and try to put some poo-so-fresh back over it and make us think is is something amazing and new. So once again, where is the evidence? I thought I would try to read the actual appeal of the lawsuit. http://www.chamberlitigation.com/si...v. Exxon Mobil Corp., et al. (NCLC Brief).pdf Hmm, no evidence there. I then went though a lot of other filings. Reems of court filings, from various groups and lawyers. And interestingly enough, about the only thing they all talk about is that US companies can be sued by people in other countries, and that companies can be sued for violating human rights. But this is the big thing, not one piece of evidence showing that Exxon was responsible for any violations of human rights. So do not give me more information of a civil suit, give me hard physical criminal evidence. Do not give me fluff pieces for lawyers who want to make millions in this, give me the independent analysis on the evidence. Because you are still failing to do this in any way, shape or form.
Hey, wait a minute. You know me. I wasnt taking a shot at a Republican president. It was the Clinton administration that supported Suharto when Indonesia was occupying East Timor. Not the Bush administration. Oh, I see. You're defending Exxon. Not Suharto. I just came accross the article while looking for pictures and decided to share and then you lose your hair over it.
And you still have to actually produce any evidence here my friend. You see, this is one of the most amazing things I am finding. I actually go into these debates with a fairly open mind, and can be convinced. Most of the time what it takes is actual evidence. Something your posts almost universally lack. I thought I would pop in on this one, because I noticed it was so old. So surely in 10 years, some kind of hard factual evidence must exist if this is true. Right?
Evidence for what? I saw an article and I showed it. You're trying to attack my credibility because I'm always turning your image of holy state on it's head. You've remained silent until now or besides this garbage here: http://www.politicalforum.com/diplo...court-israeli-wall-tantamount-annexation.html I found an article and I showed it. I didn't look into it anymore than that. No conclusions. Would you like to debate me on foreign affairs? Pick your grounds.
And just because you found an article, that means it is accurate? Come now, in 10+ years, what is the evidence? That is all I am asking you, where is the evidence? And the reason why I rarely get into these with you should be obvious, when challenged like I am doing you are never able to produce a single shred of evidence, and expect people to believe you. Even when your own references contradict things that you claim and leave a lot open for interpretation, you have nothing else to present. A historian would not do such sloppy work and consider themselves to be "historians". They do research, checking not only the facts presented, but the actual information and forensic evidence. And let's take a look at something similar to what you claim. Back in 1943, the German Army discovered 2 different mass execution sites. One was in Poland, the other was in the Ukraine. Now in both of these sites, they did detailed excavations for the time, and invited experts from all over Europe to come in and observe and participate in the investigation. Both were essentially International investigations, to determine exactly who was burried there, how they were killed, and when they were killed. And all of the evidence from these investigations was turned over to international committies, such as the Red Cross. And during the Nuremberg trials, the Soviet representatives (the massacres were actually comitted by Soviet officials) insisted on trying to hold the Germans guilty, but these charges were thrown out of court. And the SovietsRussians denied their involvement until 2010. Now, can you show me that such an investigation was done in regards to this site, and what the results are? Because forensic science has evolved a lot in the last 70 years. Surely there is some kind of scientific proof that this really happened. And without that proof, you have nothing. That is all I am asking for, the proof. Otherwise, basically all you are doing is the equivelent of some Soviet historian writing a book about how the Germans killed tens of thousands of Poles and Ukranians. Present that proof, and if it is credible you would actually find that I would be one of the first people to stand up and demand not only the punishment of all those involved, but very likely the dissalution of the corporation itself. Because I have stated in here repeatedly that such actions are not to be permitted, ever. Without that proof, you have nothing. So for the last time, where is the proof?
That's not true: http://www.politicalforum.com/diplo...court-israeli-wall-tantamount-annexation.html I never claimed to have any. I just showed an article I came across while I was doing something else. It's going to be decided in court. Again. Pick your grounds.
Translation: I have no proof, I just say whatever I want to say and could not care less about little things like "facts". And yea, I still remember that. I still think it is pretty funny myself, and largely accurate since the vast majority of your posts are pretty much the same thing over and over again. Conspiracy theories, unfounded accusations without any real evidence, hatemongering, and nobody ever really cares about them except yourself. But I do reply once in a great while, just to see if you have changed and started to include some actual facts into them. But I see you still do not, so now I just continue since you still will not admit that there are apparently no facts in this situation either. But I hope someday you will present some. Then you might become relevant.
