F35 Dog Fight report does not tell the whole story

How predictable. Just accept it. There is no fighter in production that will match the F35, except the F22.

Modern air combat is BVR. This is not the 1960s. The gun is a backup not a primary weapon.

 

And yet if it is put into missions it will be in dog fights. I would say something like the helmet being to big is a pretty big issue but i guess you are going to claim the pilot being able to see is not important.

 

If you mean the chances are not zero, I agree. The vast majority of air combat is not dog fighting. And the impact of stealth tech is not trivial. Thats why China and Russia are both investing in it.

 

I wonder what will happen if two aircraft are unable to get a solid lock at range due to eachothers stealth capabilities. How woukd that situation be handled...

 

Unless they are identical, one would have greater range than the other and be able to lock first.

America has decades more experience with stealth tech than it's rivals do. So guess who is more likely to be able to lock first.

 

F-35 Electronic Warfare Suite: More Than Self-Protection

The ability to find and analyze a threat well before it detects the F-35 maximizes both offensive lethality and survivability...

Source: http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/mil...fare-Suite-More-Than-Self-Protection_845.html

 

Yes, that's the key. Generally F35 is not particularly intended for close dog fight, in case it can, but it's not its "specialization".

Regarding the helmet of F35 pilots with its increased reality, what can I say? It's cool ...

 

Another possibility is that neither can obtain a bvr lock and have to go guns. Really thought we learned this lesson in Vietnam. The F-35 is expensive junk. It doesn't seem to do anything well. It's just a generalized crap plane that lets multiple nations enter the stealth game. Glad we have the F-22. Also have no idea how anyone can say this platform will replace the A-10 without laughing. Huge waste of money.

 

One will always obtain a lock. Even our best stealth tech fails at short enough ranges.

And yet, it's still better than everything else in production. The only thing better is the F22, which we also produce. So I guess it's a good thing for us that everyone else's fighters suck worse.

 

And if that range is close enough there will be a dog fight. The F4 Phantom was thought not to need a gun because its missiles would do the job. We were wrong and ever since every plane including the F-35 has had a gun. Problem is the F-35 apparently can't use it. If it's going up against planes that are stealth like itself it will likely be engaging closer in. Apparently it's not going to win that battle.

Where the hell has that been proven?

 

So far no one but the US has put a plane into production where this would be the case.

You mean the F4 Phantom from 40 years ago?

The variables have changed. Technology has changed. Do you want to bring back cavalry as well?

At the moment. Thats not a permanent condition, and the gun is not it's primary weapon. It's the equivalent of the spare tire on your SUV.

Like which planes? Can you give me examples of stealth planes currently in production that you expect the F35 will face?

 

The variables have not changed; missiles can be evaded with chaffs, flares, and manuevers (worth mention the F35 has problems with missile evasion due to its lack of manueverability) and when two stealth planes go to battle it will be interesting to see what happens. If neither side can obtain a lock, guess where things are going to go. No idea why anyone would support a less survivable airframe. This thing is being made to take on old technology without bothering to be protected from anything around its level.

As for planes it will face there are none in production, the F35 isn't even in production. Within the next decade though (and I assume longer, sure the plane has a service life of at least 30 years) it may come against many different stealth aircraft. China, Russia, and Iran are all working on them as well as India and apparently the Swedes want something by 2020. America isn't so far ahead of the game that we can have a dog and call it viable.

 

...and has built in defenses against both radar and heat guided missiles.

It will not happen for a long time. No one has stealth planes in production except the US, and it doesn't look like that will change in the near future. We've been arguing about stealth tech on this forum for over a decade now and people are constantly harping on supposed Chinese and Russian advancements, but nothing is actually making it into production.

And since they are not in production, we don't really know what compromises THEY will make to their own designs to achieve stealth. So it may turn out that they have the exact same "disadvantages" we do.

All the more reason for people to ѕtfu about it. Even then, it's closer to production than anything else it is being compared to. And we do have the F22 already. That is not on the drawing board, it's in the air.

You have no idea if you have a dog, because you don't have anything to compare it to except the F22. You are making a lot of assumptions...China and Iran are not exactly known for producing cutting edge technology.

 

Their stealth will probably not be as maneuverable either.

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IF they can't get a lock from BVR how will they know how to find each other then? And it's not just a lock, it is detection at all.

 

The F-4 at the time was only equipped with IR Sidewinders which had to be up close and personal to get a IR signature and thus they were being forced into a dog-fighting role. That has changed over the last two decades and BVR is going to be the 95% if not 99% role and thus the plane's capabilities are geared in that direction not close in dogfighting.

 

The F-4 had radar homing BVR Sparrow missiles. The same thing was said about the F-4, no need for dogfighting. That was proven wrong.

Here's a simple question: What happens when you run out of BVR missiles?

 

Wait so we should (*)(*)(*)(*) about a 1.5 billion dollar expenditure that is producing what appears to be an inferior product? We have a great idea that it's a dog because we're being told that it is all the time. The inability to fight an F-16 is just the latest. I don't understand why you are so ardently supporting what appears to be a very flawed aircraft.

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There is no indication that the foreign stealth fighters will not be maneuverable. Being that they emulate the F-22 rather than the F-35 and unlike the F-35 aren't trying to be VTOL capable it's likely they'll be superior to the F-35, though probably not the F-22. As for finding fighters without radar I'd say they'd find the enemy the same way fighters have always been finding each other; with their eyes. There are also ground and air radar systems which may be able to track stealth planes and can relay coordinates similar to England in WWII.

 

My point is that both sides having stealth may take BVR out of the game for a time. If we can't get the seeker to lock at a few miles out then planes are going to be getting close in. We've been fighting third world countries with bad training and bad technology, when we fight someone with an idea of what they are doing things will be different. It's also worth noting that the Russians claim their latest SAM missiles can fire on stealth aircraft. If true the F-35s lack of maneuverability takes away one more tool the pilot could use to evade the attack.

 

Correct, the not very effective Aim-7 which still required getting close to get a lock and maintaining lock and BVR was limited during Viet-Nam under ROE.

Tell me how many gun kills has the US military logged since the Viet-Nam war?

 

Evading a missile is NOT dog-fighting, a totally different animal there. And I bet the military planners have a better idea of what threats they will face than you do. The days of fighter jockies going out and looking for one-on-one close combat against an enemy are long gone and the stuff of Star Wars movies. And you have to be able to find the other aircraft in order to vector to it to even engage in close combat, so the "everyone has BVR so all combat will be close quarter dog-fighting" is specious at best.

 

What happens when you run out of BVR missiles?

 

You use the gun. Thats the point...the gun is a backup. It's not a primary weapon. Its what you use if your primary weapons are exhausted or non-functional.