Face masks made ‘little to no difference’ in preventing spread of COVID, scientific review finds

I don’t post misinformation or bullshit.

Let’s start with you providing your definition of anti mask.

Here’s my definition of someone who is anti mask. Someone who provides disinformation (information not correct the provider of information knows is incorrect) about mask efficacy. Someone who intentionally discourages mask wearing. Someone who intentionally takes actions meant to deprive people of masks. Someone who claims masks are ineffective when evidence exists to the contrary. Someone who lies about why they are discouraging mask usage.

Do you agree with my definition? If not let’s work to agree on a definition.

 

No your definition is ridiculous. To be anti-mask is to be against the use of masks. As I have shown you, Fauci is and was not against the use of masks or he wouldn’t have promoted the use of masks in healthcare workers. That just demonstrates how important he thought they were. Move along, stop wasting time trying to change the meaning of something and constantly derailing the thread with your unhinged feelings about Fauci.

 

For several early months of the global spread of Covid Fauci was decidedly anti mask. Repeatedly telling Americans there was no reason to mask.

I have no feelings about Fauci. He’s shown himself to be very intelligent and accomplished. Unfortunately he was dishonest. I have no interest in assigning motives. All I know is he made a lot of statements that were false and he was very instrumental in not only discouraging mask usage early when it mattered most but in actively keeping mask from Americans for the first 8-9 months of 2021 after they were widely available.

Keeping available masks from those who needed them was unacceptable. Has nothing to do with feelings.

 

Well. It looks like there are multiple contributors to PF that believe the advice given by public health entities on mask usage had nothing to do with the effectiveness of masks on transmission in the general population.

Fascinating.

I’ll reiterate because this is ON TOPIC. You can not tell people masks are unnecessary and not expect less than ideal efficacy of masks. You can not tell people homemade masks are equivalent to N95 masks in efficacy and expect stellar results in reduced transmission. You can’t mandate masks in places transmission is least likely and fail to recommend usage in places transmission is most likely and expect large measurable reductions in transmission. You can’t tell people masks are not to protect the wearer and expect good reduction in community transmission. You can’t intentionally withhold available N95 masks from the public for 9 months of the pandemic and expect large reductions in community transmission.

Almost every bit of advice given by public health entities in the US on masking was in conflict with all known evidence produced through application of the scientific method.

Now, anyone who wants to stay ON TOPIC and address this post instead of the poster is encouraged to provide evidence refuting any of the evidence I’ve posted about MASKS and incorrect and dishonest advice from public health entities on their use in the US.

Remember, MASKS and how MASK POLICIES were formed and imposed on Americans is the topic. Not me.

Carry on.

 

Not to mention, that whilst some members here may think the world ends at the US border, the rest of the world included (on topic!) had a variety of mask mandates that helped slow the spread of the pandemic and assisted the health services in their ongoing task of treatment for sufferers. This obsession with Fauci (off topic) seems very bizarre.

Indeed.

 

Your mistake is claiming that Fauci was “anti-mask” during the pandemic. I have offered facts from Fauci’s own words to show that he wasn’t anti-mask. You ignore that because it doesn’t match what you believe. Fauci is a lot of things, made some mistakes, but certainly isn’t the dishonest anti-masker you make him out to be. If you are for mask use, you can’t be anti mask use. Why can’t you admit that saving masks for healthcare workers doesn’t make a person against the use of masks.? Every government on this planet had different ideas related to mask usage. Why scapegoat Fauci as being anti-mask. Just because you believe he is anti-mask doesn’t make it true.

You can’t seem to figure out that suggesting one type of mask over another doesn’t make a person “anti-mask”. I just bloody well posted quotes where Fauci told people to wear masks. All the sources I have posted demonstrate that Fauci wasn’t anti-mask. So really, stop harassing me that i haven’t provided evidence because it’s clear I have.

It is common courtesy not to take a thread off-topic. A person can comment on that without being a moderator. It has nothing to do with credibility. This thread has nothing to do with Fauci. You made it about Fauci. You do love to move goal posts so as not to admit things. Oh and by the way, you have admonished posters for breaking the posting rules so in your own words you have diminished your own credibility.

 

I wonder who thinks the world ends at the US border? Surely not the guy pointing out South Korea and Japan were making correct decisions based on existence of asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission! Surely not the guy pointing out the exact dates every other country implemented travel restrictions! Surely not the guy who provided official data on how many masks South Korean epidemiologists and bureaucrats were providing their citizens on which dates while the US public health entities were telling us not to mask and making up stories about not having information Asian countries had.

Fauci was the top adviser on public health and Covid. If it had been a Dr. Johnson who lied and discouraged and prevented mask wearing it would be Dr. Johnson who deserves criticism.

The CDC is not Fauci. Birx was not Fauci. All are complicit, but none are as responsible as Fauci because he was billed as top adviser.

Yes, other countries made mistakes. But I’m unaware of any that intentionally deprived citizens of available masks. Clearly, South Korea handled shortages of PPE much better than our bureaucrats and politicians.

 

Fauci was not anti mask because he at times recommended one mask over another. He was anti mask because he told Americans to not mask when it would have had the most effective on community transmission. He was anti mask because he made false claims about efficacy of masks in general and specific types. He was anti mask because he worked actively to PREVENT Americans from accessing available N95 masks.

Just because YOU believe these actions from Fauci aren’t anti mask when you and others call such behavior anti mask in others doesn’t mean he wasn’t anti mask much of the pandemic as I showed he was.

You don’t think lying to get people to wear ineffective masks instead of AVAILABLE high quality masks isn’t anti mask? You don’t think telling people masks are essentially security blankets not effective mitigation tools isn’t anti mask? Really? Again, if I took those actions wouldn’t I be anti mask?

You like Fauci and want to defend him “as a person”. But he lied repeatedly to the American public. I can’t support that in anyone. Not Trump. Not Fauci. Has nothing to do with liking them or anything. I just abhor lies that kill people. Fauci’s lies and lies from the CDC killed people. I’m disturbed you defend lies that lead to unnecessary death just because you want to defend someone as a person.

I have not taken the thread off topic. I have posted about efficacy of masking and WHY we saw such low efficacy. You may not like the facts I’ve presented, but your dislike does not make them off topic.

I have not violated rules. I have not attributed content of one member to another. I have responded directly to topics you choose and the OP chose.

I DID NOT MAKE IT ABOUT FAUCI. Pop quiz time. Who introduced Fauci to this long sequence of posts involving 4 PF members? Hint. It wasn’t ME.

Go forth and find the answer. Or just keep lying about my posts.

 

No need to shout. Stop your emotional exaggeration about Fauci killing people. Learn the definition of ‘ant-mask’ and apply it correctly. Learn the difference between dishonest’ and ‘mistaken’.

Did Anthony Fauci state the following — Americans should wear face masks as a way to help stifle the spread of COVID-19? Yes he did, therefore pro-mask.

End of.

 

I’ve exaggerated nothing. Depriving people of N95 masks for 9 months is not only anti mask, it killed people. I’m unemotional about Fauci. Pointing out the man lies does not equate with being emotional. I am not the subject of this thread. I do care about the families he harmed by his anti mask behaviors.

The agencies that certified manufacturing facilities, tested masks produced, and gave them NIOSH certification did not make a “mistake” by telling Americans to not buy those masks and telling retailers not to sell them. That’s dishonest. Not a mistake.

Saying there was no information on presymptomatic and asymptomatic transmission in March when other countries had been using such information for at least 6 weeks to make correct policy in their countries was dishonest not a mistake.

Saying homemade masks were equivalent to N95 masks was not a mistake. It was dishonest.

Saying in July 2020 that there was plenty of PPE in early April 2020 was not a mistake. It was dishonest.

Saying masks are essentially just things that make people feel better and are not necessary in early stages of community transmission is not a mistake. It was dishonest.

Dishonesty is saying something you know is not true. You are essentially saying Fauci was/is incompetent if you say the above were mistakes, not dishonesty. I do not see any evidence Fauci is incompetent. Only evidence he is dishonest.

Fauci and the CDC and NIH all at times recommended masking. They also at times (when masking could have been most effective ) told people there was no reason and that masks were essentially to make people feel better. That’s anti mask behavior. All also told Americans to not use good masks and told them to use poor quality masks when good masks were abundant. This is anti mask. All forbade or supported forbidding the sale of abundant masks.

As I said, using your logic, anyone who accepts a surgeon wearing a mask during surgery can do or say anything they want disparaging mask efficacy. They can lie about mask effectiveness. Lie about physical properties of masks. Lie about availability of masks. Spread disinformation of all kinds about masks in the media. But because they support mask wearing in one instance, they are pro mask.

Public health entities should not lie repeatedly to the American public. No American (or anyone else) should support blatant dishonesty in public health or any aspect of healthcare.

Now, if you wish to continue your defense of Fauci, you will need to provide EVIDENCE his claim homemade masks are as good as those saved for healthcare workers. You will need to provide EVIDENCE the peer reviewed study I posted as evidence Asian countries were using information on pre and asymptomatic transmission weeks before Fauci claims he knew is in error. You will have to show the study flaws or errors in the data. You will need to show EVIDENCE the CDC did not advise against N95 use between January and September 2021. You will have to provide EVIDENCE the NYT article was fraudulent. You will have to show the claims by multiple mask manufacturers that they had excess masks without buyers is false. You will have to supply EVIDENCE they were “mistaken” or “dishonest”. You will have to show EVIDENCE the claim Fauci made about there being plenty of PPE available the first of April 2020 is true or accurate.

If you can not supply any evidence for the above paragraph, you have conceded that you have nothing to offer here except unsubstantiated opinions. You are welcome to such opinions, but they have no value in discussions of scientific nature such as Covid mitigations.

“Anti” dates back to ancient Greek language. It means against or opposed to something. Anti mask is opposition to masks or against masks. Saying nobody should be wearing masks is expression of being opposed to their use. When you take a position of authority and instruct people not to buy masks you are opposed to or against those masks. You are anti-mask.


These and other statements of fact (fact because they are supported by irrefutable evidence) I’ve posted are correct applications of the term “anti-mask”.

 

Anthony Fauci stated the following — “Americans should wear face masks as a way to help stifle the spread of COVID-19”. Therefore, Anthony Fauci can only be described as pro-mask despite the prolonged attempt to falsely label him as anti-mask.

End of.

 

Sure. Pro makers intentionally deprive people of available masks knowing it will cost lives.

The man also said homemade masks are as good as ones saved for healthcare workers. Thus, homemade masks can only be described as equivalent to N95 masks.

The man also said there was plenty of PPE in April 2020 in the US. Therefore, the availability of PPE in the US in April 2020 can only be described as ample.

The man also said there was a shortage of N95 masks January to September 2021. Therefore, the supply of masks between those times can only be described as shortages.

Evidence matters not. Only what the man says matters. Even if it conflicts with evidence and actions.

That my friend is referred to as appeal to authority fallacy. There is no place for that in science. I’ll stick with science.

 

You are incorrect. Dr Anthony first commented on asymptomatic transmission early in the Pandemic, in late January 2020 which is at odds with your claim that he said there was ‘no information’.

From January 31st, 2020: https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/31/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread-study/index.html

It wasn’t until January of 2020, that it became known that the virus was spread person to person. The extent of the viruses transmission had just began to be scientifically understood.

The study that Fauci was referring to is titled "Transmission of 2019-nCoV Infection from an Asymptomatic Contact in Germany." It was published in The New England Journal of Medicine on January 30, 2020. It reported a case of asymptomatic transmission of the virus from a Chinese businesswoman to her German colleague. One day later, Fauci publicly discussed this.

Did other countries base their promotion of mask wearing on one case study? Highly doubtful.

The first case of Covid-19 in the USA was reported January 21st, 2020. Fauci mentioned asymptomatic case study 10 days later. It was then known at the time that people could be asymptomatic. It was unknown if asymptomatic people spread the virus to others easily, what their viral load was compared to symptomatic people, if testing would reveal asymptomatic carriers and so forth. Fauci, nor anybody else in the world had a crystal ball to know anything other the meagre details from one case study.

It seems odd to me that you are claiming other countries had been using information related to asymptomatic transmission for at ‘least’ six weeks. Actually, some countries including South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China encouraged the widespread use of masks as a ‘preventative measure’ again Covid-19 transmission. It was due, more to having previous experience with respiratory virus outbreaks of SARS and MERS which influenced their proactive approach to mask wearing. Countries like China and Japan promoted mask wearing for respiratory illnesses way before the pandemic.

The first 5 studies published on asymptomatic transfer are as follows:

If you are going to suggest Fauci did not know of the existence of these studies, I very much doubt it. As you can surmise, research on the virus and its transmission was being produced over a few months. Still much was still not known in March related to asymptomatic transmission of the virus. As the science progressed:

From Chat GPT —

Most European countries began promoting mask-wearing at various times during the COVID-19 pandemic, depending on the progression of the virus and the recommendations of public health authorities in each country. Generally, many European countries started recommending or mandating mask-wearing in public settings during the spring and summer of 2020 as part of their strategies to control the spread of the virus. However, the specific timing and extent of mask-wearing recommendations varied between countries based on factors such as the severity of outbreaks, cultural norms, and available scientific evidence.​

As you can appreciate, Fauci wasn’t the only one slow on the uptake of suggesting masks for all and it wasn’t based on asymptomatic transmission. Are all the infection experts around the world somehow a cabal of liars who purposely lied to kill off a portion of the population? What they were doing was changing recommendations as more knowledge about the virus and its transmission became known. As more became known about the virus and its transmission, recommendations changed to support the use of masks in public settings to help reduce the spread of COVID-19. This evolution in guidance reflects the dynamic nature of the pandemic response and the iterative process of scientific understanding as opposed to dishonesty. And again many countries did not institute mask wearing immediately.

There is no evidence to suggest that Anthony Fauci intentionally lied about masks. His guidance on mask-wearing evolved over time based on emerging scientific evidence, the progression of the pandemic, and the availability of personal protective equipment (PPE) for healthcare workers. Initially, there were concerns about PPE shortages, and recommendations focused on reserving masks for healthcare workers. Like I have already stated, as more became known about the virus and its transmission, recommendations changed to support the use of masks in public settings to help reduce the spread of COVID-19. This evolution in guidance reflects the dynamic nature of the pandemic response and the iterative process of scientific understanding.

I don’t know why you have a bee in you bonnet about cloth masks. They can be effective in reducing the transmission of respiratory droplets. However, their effectiveness can vary depending on several factors including type of fabric, tightness of weave, number of layers, fit, construction, proper handling and maintenance, wearing it properly. While cloth masks may not provide the same level of protection like a N95 respirator, they can significantly reduce the spread of respiratory droplets but when used correctly in conjunction with other preventative measures such as social distancing and hand hygiene, they contribute to the control of the spread of covid.

If everybody in the USA had been provided with N95 masks, would that have magically stopped the spread of the virus. I doubt it. People refused to wear masks. People wore them wrong. People constantly took them on and off. People didn’t wear them fitted properly. The didn’t work well for people with facial hair. People were contaminated via hand to mouth/eyes transmission and so forth.

Labelling Fauci as ‘dishonest’ is disingenuous. He was offering the same advice as many infectious disease experts around the world and he certainly wasn’t the sole cause of deaths in the USA during the Pandemic.

In fact, I queried this with Chat GPT — my question — Why did the USA have the most covid-19 deaths? The answer was not that Fauci was a dishonest liar causing the death of many. The answer was:

Question — Did Fauci contribute to coronavirus deaths in the USA

 

No. I’m not incorrect. You are confused.

It looks like you have agreed with me all along. So, now that it looks like we agree Fauci knew about asymptomatic transmission, when was it clear that the infection could be spread by asymptomatic carriers who don’t know they’re infected? When would a relatively competent epidemiologist known this?

You keep insinuating I think Fauci didn’t know about studies. What leads you to say that? Have I EVER posted anything about Fauci being uninformed or unaware of evidence? Can you use the PF quote function to show me what I’ve posted that that makes you think I suggested or would suggest Fauci was unaware of the evidence for asymptomatic transmission of SARS-CoV-2 or any other respiratory virus?

I’m not particularly interested in letting algorithms do my thinking for me.

I’ve already clearly stated other countries and epidemiologists messed up. That is not what I’m addressing here. I’m addressing the fact in the US, policy was based on lies throughout the pandemic. Not mistakes.

Can you point to another epidemiologist or public health entities that told people there was no reason to mask early in community transmission and that masks were basically to make people feel better one month before changing to recommending masks?

Again, your opinion is noted. But for your opinion to have weight you must present evidence Fauci didn’t know about asymptomatic transmission. You would have to present evidence homemade masks are as good as masks saved for healthcare workers. You would have to provide evidence masks are mostly to make people feel better in the middle of pandemics. You would have to provide evidence there was ample supply of PPE in the US the first of April 2020.

I’m not seeing that evidence from you. The only evidence you’ve provided supports the evidence I’ve already provided—that Fauci DID know about asymptomatic transmission.

Can you quote me anywhere saying cloth masks are useless? Can you use PF quote functions to show I’ve said homemade masks can’t have value when other options are unavailable?

If not, then the above paragraph ftom you is a waste of everyone’s time because it has no relevance to our discussion.

Can you use the PF quote function to show what content of mine leads you to believe I think N95 masks would magically stop Covid?

You claim to be a healthcare worker. When given the choice, did you wear an N95 equivalent or better mask or a homemade mask? Why?

Throughout the pandemic I routinely pointed out to mask users that masks had great POTENTIAL to protect them and others. I routinely recommend proper use and pointed out pitfalls of improper use. One big problem in the US was the belief just wearing a mask was enough. If you had your homemade mask you could get up in people’s grill without risk. You could relax social distancing and quarantine. Unfortunately in many cases reliance on low quality masks led to more participation in risky behaviors like less time spent away from potential infection sources.

Here’s an example.

Analogy. When I have an animal with acute selenium deficiency symptoms, I don’t offer it free choice fed mineral supplement. I know I have much more effective injectable selenium/vit. E product that corrects the condition almost immediately. The free choice mineral is unlikely to correct the problem. Withholding the available injectable product is negligent and animal abuse.

In the US we had people who were willing to wear better masks. People who were looking for better masks. But were told not to use them and actively prevented from accessing them.

Again, your opinion is noted. But for your opinion to have weight you must present evidence Fauci didn’t know about asymptomatic transmission. You would have to present evidence homemade masks are as good as masks saved for healthcare workers. You would have to provide evidence masks are mostly to make people feel better in the middle of pandemics. You would have to provide evidence there was ample supply of PPE in the US the first of April 2020.

Again, I’m not into letting algorithms do my thinking.

But YES, absolutely the US did many things that led to higher death rates. We are one of the fattest populations on earth. We have dietary habits most likely to favor infection and poor outcomes. We have poor sleeping habits that are correlated with increased infection risk and poor outcomes. I started a thread on this subject hoping to help people help themselves avoid these things.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/protect-yourself-from-covid—vaxxed-or-unvaxxed.593838/#post-1073321242

Poor advice on masking and lies about masking was not the only failing of our public health entities here.