"Faith is the permission the religious give themselves when reason fails." - Harris

So you are just saying inflammatory things while openly admitting that that you have no desire to clarify your point, address my actual claims or otherwise engage in debate and discussion? Yeah, that's called trolling.

 

Because I already have countless times.

Don't you recall this convo?
Source: http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=412006&page=18&p=1065086780#post1065086780

Convos like this happen non-stop from you. It's pointless to pretend it doesn't.

 

All of the Bible is written 'after the fact'. You can't write about something until it's happened. Most of Biblical prophecy is not prophecy at all. It is simply telling people what will happen if they continue in the way they're going. If it comes true it's simply because people have not heeded the warnings. Many of us, probably you included, have prophesied. I've often had people tell me they are going to take certain actions, without thinking them through or seeing the consequences, and I've warned them not to go ahead because.......
Some 'prophecy' is written after the events and is therefore 'history'.

The Bible itself is about 1600 years old, though many of the books were around before that. The OT was written around 600 BCE with parts added during the Maccabean era. (Parts of the book of Daniel).

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE for the Hebrews (as a people) ever being in Egypt. Tribes often visited Egypt to pasture their flocks etc.If there were we would be able to date the supposed Exodus - and that we can't do.
All the evidence from Egypt points to slaves being treated well - until the Romans installed Ptolomy as the provincial leader a millenia later.


If the Jews had been in Egypt and escaped to Canaan they would have still been under Egyptian control, as the Egyptians ruled Palestine. And the Egyptians would surely have noted that 2 million of their 'slaves' had 'upped sticks' and moved.

As for building pyramids. The time of pyramid building was virtually finished, Pharaohs concentrating on carving out tombs for themselves out of rock faces.

 

Oh look! Another supposed "expert".
The bible includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The Old Testament prophesied of Jesus' coming.

Here is the Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_scroll

This scroll has multiple references to Jesus' coming and is dated between 335-324 BC and 202-107 BC.

In Isaiah, the following prophecies have been made:

1) Jesus born of a virgin
2) Jesus having a Galilean ministry
3) Jesus being widely rejected by the Jews
4) Jesus being buried in a rich man's tomb
etc.

Source: http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Isaiah's Messianic Prophecies.htm


So, explain to me how this scroll knew all of this and get all of these prophecies right before hand? I look forward to your explanation.

 

The only authority you have for that is what the disciples say. Anything else is second hand. He may have been made a celebrity in Galilee by the disciples, but elsewhere he was unknown. If you don't believe me read through Acts, and read Pauls letters.

 

For starters, the "virgin" birth prophesied in Isaiah had nothing to do with the Messiah. Read the whole chapter, not just the verses you learned in Sunday school. Who was this child supposed to be a sign for, and what was he a sign of? I'll give you a hint: it involves occurrences that ended centuries before Jesus was born.

 

No it doesn't. The Dead Sea Scroll is a copy of the original writings from around 600 BCE (Babylonian exile)

Isaiah when read in the original Hebrew says nothing about Jesus born of a virgin. The Hebrew word is maiden - and that can mean a young woman, even a very young married woman. If you read Isaiah in relation to Hebrew history it clearly relates the Jews.

Isaiah 53 - the Suffering Servant refers to the Jewish nation. Throughout the OT we find the Jews mentioned in the singular tense. Also as a servant suffering. Almost the entire book of Isaiah is taken up with the Jews as the suffering servant. Why would Isaiah suddenly use it to refer to someone else, and then go back to the Jews?
Chapters 42, 49, 50 and 53 are called Servant songs. In 42, 49, 50 the servant is clearly the Jewish nation. I repeat why would Isaiah suddenly use 53 to refer to someone/thing else.

It's a shame you don't follow current modern advice. That is to read the Old Testament as it was written 2600 years ago, taking into account the situation and circumstances of the time. Something Christian scholars are beginning to do. The same applies to the NT. The Nativity stories in Luke and Matthew sound plausible until you look into the situation of the time. Many Christian scholars are now accepting the Last Supper was not a Passover meal, but a 'Family'.
The source you gave me is a Christian source. It doesn't take into account what I have posted above.
meal. Again you need to look into Jewish religious festivals and rituals to see this.

I suggest you do some study and not rely on just Christian sites for your information.

If you were to read the OT and the NT under the circumstances/culture and beliefs in which they were written, you would have a new and true understanding of what the Bible says.

 

God has never referred to Israel as a servant. God has always referred Israel as a bride (a cheating bride at that). Servants serve, and Israel can't be referred to a servant because Israel, as described by God, was a rebellious nation. They weren't ever described as servants. If you don't understand this simple fact, then I'm probably just wasting my breathe on you.

It's kinda funny watching the two of you stumble while trying to explain away the verses. Here, explain these too:


Isaiah 2:2-4…Repentance for the nations…Luke 24:47
Isaiah 4:2…Messiah reigning
Isaiah 5:1-6…Son of God’s vineyard: a parable of judgement
Isaiah 6:1...When Isaiah saw His glory... John 12:40-41
Isaiah 6:9-10...Parables fall on deaf ears...Matthew 13:13-15
Isaiah 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts 28:23-29
Isaiah 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Luke 1:35
Isaiah 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Matthew 1:18-23
Isaiah 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Matthew 28:20
Isaiah 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
Isaiah 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Matthew 4:12-17
Isaiah 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Luke 1:31
Isaiah 9:6...A Son given-Deity...Luke 1:32; John 1;14; 1 Tim. 3:16
Isaiah 9:6...Declared to be the Son of God with power... Romans. 1:3,4
Isaiah 9:6...The Wonderful One, Peleh...Luke 4:22
Isaiah 9:6...The Counselor, Yaatz...Matthew 13:54
Isaiah 9:6...The Mighty God, El Gibor...Matthew 11:20
Isaiah 9:6...The Everlasting Father, Avi Adth...John 8:58
Isaiah 9:6...The Prince of Peace, Sar Shalom...John . 16:33
Isaiah 9:7...To establish an everlasting kingdom...Luke 1:32-33
Isaiah 9:7...His Character-Just...John 5:30
Isaiah 9:7...No end to his Government, Throne, and Peace...Luke 1:32-33
Isaiah 11:1...Called a Nazarene-the Branch, Netzer...Matthew 2:23
Isaiah 11:1...A rod out of Jesse-Son of Jesse...Luke 3:23,32
Isaiah 11:2...The anointed One by the Spirit...Matthew 3;16,17
Isaiah 11:2...His Character-Wisdom, Understanding, et al....John 4:4-26
Isaiah 11:4...His Character-Truth...John 14:6
Isaiah 11:10...The Gentiles seek Him...John 12:18-21
Isaiah 12:2...Called Jesus-Yeshua (salvation)...Matthew 1:21
Isaiah 16:4,5…Reigning in mercy…Luke 1:31-33
Isaiah 22:21-25…Peg in a sure place…Revelation 3:7
Isaiah 25:8...The Resurrection predicted...I Corinthians 15:54
Isaiah 26:19...His power of Resurrection predicted...John 11:43,44
Isaiah 28:16...The Messiah is the precious corner stone...Acts 4:11,12
Isaiah 29:13...He indicated hypocritical obedience to His Word...Matthew 15:7-9
Isaiah 29:14...The wise are confounded by the Word...I Corinthians 1:18-31
Isaiah 32:2...A Refuge-A man shall be a hiding place...Matthew 23:37
Isaiah 33:22…Son of the Highest…Luke 1:32; 1 Timothy 1:17 6:15
Isaiah 35:4...He will come and save you...Matthew 1:21
Isaiah 35:5...To have a ministry of miracles...Matthew 11:4-6
Isaiah 40:3,4...Preceded by forerunner...John 1:23
Isaiah 40:9..."Behold your God."...John 1:36;19:14
Isaiah 40:11...A shepherd-compassionate life-giver...John 10:10-18
Isaiah 42:1-4...The Servant-as a faithful, patient redeemer... Matthew12:18-21
Isaiah 42:2...Meek and lowly... Matthew 11:28-30
Isaiah 42:3...He brings hope for the hopeless... John 4
Isaiah 42:4...The nations shall wait on His teachings... John 12:20-26
Isaiah 42:6...The Light (salvation) of the Gentiles...Luke 2:32
Isaiah 42:1,6...His is a Worldwide compassion... Matthew 28:19,20
Isaiah 42:7...Blind eyes opened... John 9:25-38
Isaiah 42:13-25…Messiah’s actions at His second coming…Revelation
Isaiah 43:11...He is the only Savior... Acts 4:12
Isaiah 44:3...He will send the Spirit of God... John 16:7,13
Isaiah 45:23...He will be the Judge... John 5:22;Romans. 14:11
Isaiah 48:12...The First and the Last...John 1:30;Rev. 1:8,17
Isaiah 48:17...He came as a Teacher...John 3:2
Isaiah 49:1...Called from the womb-His humanity...Matthew 1:18
Isaiah 49:5...A Servant from the womb...Luke 1:31;Phil. 2:7
Isaiah 49:6...He is Salvation for Israel...Luke 2:29-32
Isaiah 49:6...He is the Light of the Gentiles...Acts 13:47
Isaiah 49:6...He is Salvation unto the ends of the earth... Acts 15:7-18
Isaiah 49:7...He is despised of the Nation... John 8:48-49
Isaiah 50:3...Heaven is clothed in black at His humiliation... Luke 23:44,45
Isaiah 50:4...He is a learned counselor for the weary... Matthew 11:28,29
Isaiah 50:5...The Servant bound willingly to obedience... Matthew 26:39
Isaiah 50:6a..."I gave my back to the smiters."... Matthew 27:26
Isaiah 50:6b...He was smitten on the cheeks... Matthew 26:67
Isaiah 50:6c...He was spat upon... Matthew 27:30
Isaiah 52:4-5…Suffered vicariously…Mark 15:3,4,27,28; Luke 23:1-25,32-34
Isaiah 52:7...To publish good tidings of peace... Luke 4:14,15
Isaiah 52:13...The Servant exalted...Acts 1:8-11; Ephesians 1:19-22
Isaiah 52:13...Behold, My Servant... Matthew 17:5; Phil. 2:5-8
Isaiah 52:14...The Servant shockingly abused... Luke 18:31-34; Matthew 26:67,68
Isaiah 52:15...Nations startled by message of the Servant... Romans. 15:18-21
Isaiah 52:15...His blood shed to make atonement for all... Rev. 1:5
Isaiah 53:1...His people would not believe Him... John 12:37-38
Isaiah 53:2a...He would grow up in a poor family.... Luke 2:7
Isaiah 53:2b...Appearance of an ordinary man... Phil. 2:7-8
Isaiah 53:3a...Despised.... Luke 4:28-29
Isaiah 53:3b...Rejected... Matthew 27:21-23
Isaiah 53:3c...Great sorrow and grief... Luke 19:41-42
Isaiah 53:3d...Men hide from being associated with Him... Mark 14:50-52
Isaiah 53:4a...He would have a healing ministry... Luke 6:17-19
Isaiah 53:4b...He would bear the sins of the world... 1 Pet. 2:24
Isaiah 53:4c...Thought to be cursed by God... Matthew 27:41-43
Isaiah 53:5a...Bears penalty for mankind's transgressions... Luke 23:33
Isaiah 53:5b...His sacrifice would provide peace between man and God... Col. 1:20
Isaiah 53:5c...His back would be whipped... Matthew 27:26
Isaiah 53:6a...He would be the sin-bearer for all mankind...Galatians 1:4
Isaiah 53:6b...God's will that He bear sin for all mankind... 1 John 4:10
Isaiah 53:7a...Oppressed and afflicted... Matthew 27:27-31
Isaiah 53:7b...Silent before his accusers... Matthew 27:12-14
Isaiah 53:7c...Sacrificial lamb... John 1:29
Isaiah 53:8a...Confined and persecuted... Matthew 26:47-27:31
Isaiah 53:8b...He would be judged... John 18:13-22
Isaiah 53:8c...Killed.... Matthew 27:35
Isaiah 53:8d...Dies for the sins of the world... 1 John 2:2
Isaiah 53:9a...Buried in a rich man's grave... Matthew 27:57
Isaiah 53:9b...Innocent and had done no violence... Mark 15:3
Isaiah 53:9c...No deceit in his mouth... John 18:38
Isaiah 53:10a...God's will that He die for mankind... John 18:11
Isaiah 53:10b...An offering for sin... Matthew 20:28
Isaiah 53:10c...Resurrected and live forever.... Mark 16:16
Isaiah 53:10d...He would prosper... John 17:1-5
Isaiah 53:11a...God fully satisfied with His suffering... John 12:27
Isaiah 53:11b...God's servant... Romans. 5:18-19
Isaiah 53:11c...He would justify man before God... Romans. 5:8-9
Isaiah 53:11d...The sin-bearer for all mankind... Hebrews 9:28
Isaiah 53:12a...Exalted by God because of his sacrifice... Matthew 28:18
Isaiah 53:12b...He would give up his life to save mankind... Luke 23:46
Isaiah 53:12c...Grouped with criminals... Luke 23:32
Isaiah 53:12d...Sin-bearer for all mankind... 2 Corinthians 5:21
Isaiah 53:12e...Intercede to God in behalf of mankind... Luke 23:34
Isaiah 55:1…Every one come who is thirsty…New Testament
Isaiah 55:3...Resurrected by God... Acts 13:34
Isaiah 55:4...A witness... John 18:37
Isaiah 55:5…Foreign nations come to God…Acts
Isaiah 59:15-16a...He would come to provide salvation... John 6:40
Isaiah 59:15-16b...Intercessor between man and God... Matthew 10:32
Isaiah 59:20...He would come to Zion as their Redeemer... Luke 2:38
Isaiah 60:1-3…Nations walk in the light…Luke 2:32
Isaiah 61:1-2a...The Spirit of God upon him... Matthew 3:16-17
Isaiah 61:1-2b...The Messiah would preach the good news... Luke 4:17-21
Isaiah 61:1-2c...Provide freedom from the bondage of sin and death... John 8:31-32
Isaiah 61:1-2...Proclaim a period of grace... John 5:24
Isaiah 62:1-2…Called by an new name…Luke 2:32, Revelation 3:12
Isaiah 62:11…Thy King Cometh, Entered Jerusalem on Colt…Matthew 21:7
Isaiah 63:1-3…A vesture dipped in blood…Revelation 19:13
Isaiah 63:8,9…Afflicted with the afflicted…Matthew 25:34-40
Isaiah 65:9…The elect shall inherit…Romans 11 5-7, Hebrews 7:14, Revelation 5:5
Isaiah 65:17-25…New heaven/New Earth…2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1
Isaiah 66:18-19…All nations come to God…New Testament

 

He wasn't unknown. Any historian worth his weight knows that Jesus was very WELL known. Paul's letter amplify that fact. You just have no idea what you're talking about:
Proof:
[video=youtube;u9CC7qNZkOE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CC7qNZkOE[/video]

 

Thanks Trevor, saved me the trouble

 

Let's clear all those verses out of the way. These are all Christian interpretations, cherry picked verses put together to form a viewpoint not intended or even dreamed of by Isaiah.
The writer of Revelations does the same thing. Uses the OT to form his vision.
By doing this you open the Bible up to ridicule and misuse, like other societies (JW's etc).

In the OT the term servant is applied to Israel as the descendants of Jacob. We read often the term 'O Jacob' when refering to Israel (Jeremiah 30:10. 46:27) .
Israel the Servant. Psalm 136:22. Throughout Isaiah. I don't know why I bother. You have obviously done no study of your own, relying on others. Rather like another poster.

Isaiah is a book of warning to the Jews to follow God or accept the consequences, which were severe and happened. It also looks forward to the Jewish Messianic Age (not the Christian Messiah). It was written about the time of the Babylonian exile and was intended to encourage the Jews for the future of their people. Compare that with the encouragement that God gives through Jeremiah (29:1-15). It is prophetic only in the sense of the consequences of failure to do right.

In which case don't you find it strange that many do not believe Jesus even existed. Or if he he did, not as a Messianic figure. Just an influential itinerant preacher. We have 2 books of writings by biased disciples, and 2 books of second hand reports. Everything else is secondhand.

Another video. Think for yourself. Don't take the opinions of everyone else. Study all sides and form your own opinion.

 

Perhaps at one point God saw Israel as a servant. However, that changed after they were given the Law. From that point on, God referred to Israel as a wife.

Hosea 2:19-20 (NLT) says, "When that day comes,” says the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’
instead of ‘my master.’"

From that point on, Israel as been known as a wife and not a servant. You're reading from Isaiah when Israel was already made a wife. So therefore, you're 100% wrong. Keep in mind, we're talking about the prophecy of Jesus Christ written in Isaiah. The "Servant" referring to Jesus Christ himself while "Wife" refers to Israel. Here's the proof:

Isaiah 54:5-8 (NASB) says, "“For your husband is your Maker,
Whose name is the Lord of hosts;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel,
Who is called the God of all the earth.
“For the Lord has called you,
Like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit,
Even like a wife of one’s youth when she is rejected,”
Says your God.
“For a brief moment I forsook you,
But with great compassion I will gather you.
“In an outburst of anger
I hid My face from you for a moment,
But with everlasting loving kindness I will have compassion on you,”
Says the Lord your Redeemer."

Jeremiah 3:1 (NASB) says, "God says, “If a husband divorces his wife
And she goes from him
And belongs to another man,
Will he still return to her?
Will not that land be completely polluted?
But you are a harlot with many lovers;
Yet you turn to Me,” declares the Lord."

Jeremiah 3:8 (NASB) says, "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also."

Jeremiah 31:31-33 (NASB) says, "“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Hosea 2:19-20 (NLT) says, "I will make you my wife forever,
showing you righteousness and justice,
unfailing love and compassion.
I will be faithful to you and make you mine,
and you will finally know me as the Lord."

Your odd attempts to separate the OT from the NT as being incompatible is laughable. It's clear the OT spoke about Jesus beforehand centuries before it happened. Its also clear that God referred to Israel as a wife. It's also clear God betrothed Israel the moment He gave them the Law. You honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

All you're doing is spouting lies told to you. You ignorantly hop and skip around spewing these lies to other people - professing yourself as wise. It's hilarious. You then question Jesus' existence? LOL. No one should ever take you seriously if you honestly believe that. Even skeptics know Jesus existed. Watch the video and then formulate an opinion. Here's the same video but in a different format.

Proof:
[video=youtube;sA6jjFWUfLo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA6jjFWUfLo[/video]

 

He assumes one can't have both reason and faith.

 

1. All the references I gave you come some millenia after the Law was given. Which rather negates your point.
2. Another WarRen tactic. The passage begins 'In that day....... What day? Read and study Hosea. That day has not yet come.
3. The other does not apply as Isaiah is not refering to Jesus. Nowhere in the OT is Jesus prophesied. It's all Christianity's interpretation of scriptures that were not meant for Gentiles. The Tanakh is Jewish, concerning Jews, written by Jews.
4. Jeremiah 30:10 (after Isaiahs time) refers to Israel as the servant. And guess what. So does Mary - IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. Luke1:54. a clear indication of the thinking of the Jews of the time of Jesus.
5. I've never denied Jesus existence, if you bothered to read properly. He certainly existed as a wise and learned Jewish 'Rabbi'.
6. As for your website, I'm just not interested. I studied the subject of whether Jesus existed or not, and if he did, as what, many years ago. I don't need anyone to make my mind up. So don't bother with sites.
7. Try to learn the difference between reality and picture language in the Bible. The Hebrews used picture language frequently in the scriptures. It was one of the characteristics of their teaching.

I'm always amused by YOUR relying on others. Try studying for yourself. You've been brainwashed.

 

Yet again, you want me to answer your questions while you ignore mine. Why are you ignoring the questions I asked about Isaiah 7:14? I'll try again. Who was this child supposed to be a sign for and what was he supposed to be a sign of?

I'll make it even easier. Between the time that Jesus was born and the time that he was old enough to know the difference between good and evil, did Ahaz defeat Syria and Ephraim in battle? If not, then Jesus didn't fulfill this prophesy. Try reading the whole chapter, not just the verses you learned in Sunday school.

We aren't the ones struggling to explain verses like this. Christians are the one who have to explain that the verses don't mean what they actually say, or try to cheat their way out of it by claiming "double fulfillment".

 

1) Israel (the nation) is referred to as a wife.

2) That day has long gone by now. Proof: Jeremiah 31:31-33

3) This is your opinion that is unsubstantiated by any fact. Paul was Jewish and he made these references already. So was Jesus. Essentially, you're saying they are both wrong and to simply take your word for it.

4) This does not negate the fact that Israel was viewed as "married" to God. You're trying to argue that Jesus wasn't prophesied, but you are alone in this assumption. Jesus himself and Paul both said it had been prophesied in the OT. They have considerable more weight than you - a random dude on the Internet.

5) But you do not believe he was the messiah. Yet, you cannot explain what history speaks about him. You're just a lone man walking against the wind of facts. No one here believes you, so why argue?

6) Any links I've provided are just sources to reference where my information is coming from. If you deny my source, then you've gotta come up with your own. Remember, you're just a random guy on the Internet. You have 0 credibility on your own. No one here will believe you - and I certainly do not believe you. If you want me to, you gotta back up your words with facts.

7) Coming from you, a person who has no belief. A person who isn't even sure why he's on this planet or how it was made; or even why it was made. I should listen to you on how to interpret the bible - a random man on the Internet with no facts to back up anything he's saying. There's no consensus he's referencing or scholars who'd agree with him. A man who is just spouting nonsense from the top of his head. I should believe that man? I should listen to you? How about no?

 

Oh dear, Oh dear.

2 Jeremiah is talking about a day when Israel will be one again. In Jeremiah's day the nation called Israel (the northern kingdom had been dispersed across the known world by the Assyrians. The kingdom called Judah was later defeated by the Babylonians and sent into exile. Only the people of the kingdom of Judah ever returned to Palestine. The other 10 tribes are still lost. God is saying through Jeremiah that there will come a time when he will gather both Israel and Judah together and make a new covenant with them. This has not happened. Israel (northern kingdom) is still lost. It is similar to the passage in Isaiah.
3. Paul was a Jew who converted OT scripture to fit his new outlook. What you can't get into your head is that NT teaching relies on the OT for it's wrong interpretation of Jewish Scriptures. Without the OT you have no Jesus the 'prophesied' messiah.

All those references you posted are taken out of context. If I were to go through Carroll's Alice in Wonderland and take out words and even paragraphs, I could probably make a religion out of it. But it would not be a valid interpretation of Alice in Wonderland.

In the day of Jesus no-one believed Isaiah 53 was predicting a Messiahs death. When Jesus said 'I am going to Jerusalem to die' Peter didn't even think of Isaiah 53. He immediately protested and rebuked Jesus. Then in the garden he tried to defend Jesus. His upbringing and Jewish beliefs would not accept Jesus death on the cross.

Isaiah 53 tells of the Jewish Messianic Age when the nations of the earth will look with amazement at the re-gathering of the Jews in their Homeland and consider all that the Jews have been through, and yet have survived. Nation after nation has tried to exterminate the Jews. They have suffered terribly, often through their own fault, but yet have been 'resurrected' for the last time - the return of the Jewish Messiah in might and power.

I could give you a long dissertation on the subject, but that is what the Jews believe. They claim this is from Yhwh (g-d) and who is to dispute it.
Well, Christianity is beginning to question its own beliefs on the subject. One of the new Bibles identifies Israel as the Suffering Servant.

Points 4 & 5 I am one amongst millions and I can assure you that millions agree with me. Look at the decline of Christianity amongst the educated Nations of the world.

6. I didn't deny your source. I didn't even bother to watch it. Over many years I have read books, seen videos, seen CD's and now the internet on the subject of Jesus. You want facts.

a. Either Jesus existed or he didn't.
b. If he did he was either a wise Jewish teacher who was killed, or he was the Christian Messiah who was killed.
c. Either he rose again or he didn't.
d. Christianity is built on the misinterpretation of OT scripture or it is built on the reported teaching of a Jewish Rabbi.

A fact is something that is proved to be true. Now choose which is fact. a,b,c,d. and where is your proof.

The fact is that there are people on here who do believe me. How about believing you?

The truth is I don't care what you think. I don't care if you don't listen to me. Continue with the nonsense you are posting. I shall continue to point out where you are wrong.

 

We have another WarRen.

 

What 10 tribes are you talking about?

Israel and Judah *are* together. Don't you realize that when Israel became a nation back in 1968, the prophecy was already fulfilled? (Jeremiah 32:44) Benjamin Netanyahu even states this himself by stating that Israel can longer be removed.
[video=youtube;DwxoIjHmlFQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwxoIjHmlFQ[/video]


If you're saying that Judah and Israel never returned and united, then you are blatantly denying the reality. You are denying the new covenant which has already been established. That new covenant is Christianity. It's as plain as day.

LOL! Uh huh.
So, Trevor. Are you a secular Jew? Only Jews remove the o from God due to one of the commandments written in the OT.

Look at the decline of Judaism in Israel. You're not making a point here.

Uh huh. Clearly.

So, anyway. Are you Jewish?

 

You really are showing you ignorance of all matters Jewish.

The 10 tribes are the ones that made up the Northern Kingdom of Israel. 2 tribes Judah and Simeon made up the Kingdom of Judah.
The 10 tribes (Israel) were conquered by the Assyrians 150 years before the 2 tribes (Judah) were conquered by the Babylonians.
The 10 tribes were scattered throughout the known Assyrian kingdom. They are called the lost tribes because they never returned to Palestine and are still scattered somewhere. Interestingly a tribe in Africa has just been linked to the Jews.
The 2 tribes (Judah) were allowed back to their homeland under Cyrus, the Persian king who conquered the Babylonians
At the time of Jesus these were the occupants of Palestine. Along with the Samaritans - who were not Jews.

You are confusing the term Israel (Northern Kingdom) which was destroyed around 750BCE with the modern State of Israel.

Therefore the prophecy has not been fulfilled.

See above.

You call me a loner. Which is strange because what I've posted about the Book of Isaiah - especially chapter 53 -
is what all Orthodox Jews and many other Jews have believed since Isaiah actually wrote his book. Which precedes Christianity by several centuries.

You would be surprised how many modern scholars are re-evaluating the OT in the light of the conditions, culture and religious beliefs of the time. Most modern scholars now accept that 'Lucifer' in Isaiah and Ezekiel actually refer to 2 ancient kings (Tyrus and a king of Babylon whose name I've forgotten) who considered themselves above all,and yet were brought down.

The Bible is a book made up of 2 differing scriptures. It should not be amalgamated. The reason for it being so is the misinterpretation of Christianity of the Tanakh - OT. Take away Christian misinterpretation and the books are totally different in doctrine. You will not find an Orthodox, or many other Jews, with a Bible. They have their own 'book' - the Tanakh.

Of course Jesus used the OT. He was a Jew who declared that he had come to lead his people back to Jhwh.
It's fairly clear the Disciples didn't believe he was the Christian Messiah at the time for such a thing hadn't been thought of. When people like Martha declared her belief in Jesus as the Messiah it was clearly the Jewish Messiah she was talking about. The idea of Jesus as a Christian Messiah came much later. Jesus never created Christianity. It was Paul who did that. Even the disciples stayed within the confines of their form of 'Judaism' for many years. Even Paul could not get away from it entirely as you would see if you studied Acts.




No - I am not a Jew.

When I started studying there were no such things as CD's or the internet. The Bible, study books and classes were the thing of the day. I've studied the Bible, taken a deep interest in Judaism's beliefs, rituals etc. That way I can see how Christianity has taken and used Jewish Scripture.

So could you if you opened your mind and did your own study. Yes, you will have to use websites as I used books. BUT use websites both Christian, Jewish and athiest. That way you will see things and make up YOUR mind.

 

You are talking about land. The land won't be restored until after the war of Magog (which hasn't happened yet).

You didn't have to go into a bunch of detail about the tribes. I just asked which 10 tribes. In any case... See below...

Even the Jews are saying it has. Israel had been without a kingdom for over 1000 years. In 1946-1948 they were all brought back to Israel. In 1968, Israel was made into a sovereign state in one day. You're basically saying this hasn't happened, but clearly Christians and Jews (which you're neither a part of) are saying prophecy has been fulfilled.

These are just your wild theories. They're unsubstantiated and no one else will probably discuss them with you, because honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. I've said this already multiple times.

Also, "Lucifer" is only in the KJV translation of the bible. If you knew anything about Jewish scripture, "Lucifer" would've never came to your mind.

It's clear that you're not. You seriously have no clue about the topic in which you're discussing. First off, "Christianity" wasn't ever called that until hundreds of years after Jesus died, and it was used as a derogatory term. Clearly, no one during Jesus' time believed he was the Christian Messiah. Clearly.

Then you claim Paul created Christianity. That's false. Paul wasn't a disciple of Jesus. The disciples are the ones who spread Jesus' message around - which formed Christianity. Besides, at that time, everyone knew about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is why Christianity exploded as a religion.

So, you spout a bunch of false claims filled with ignorance and you conclude that I need to open my mind... That's rich. I honestly don't see the purpose of continuing here. All of your facts are screwed up.

 

If you knew about the Messianic Age you would understand that the prophecy has not been fulfilled. All the tribes of Israel will be gathered from the ends of the earth. The world will come to recognise the God of Israel. For heavens sake study before you make a complete idiot of yourself.

The Jews are saying nothing of the sort. The final toast in a ritual meal of the Jews is 'Next year in Jerusalem'. This is the hope that the Messiah has come back, the New Temple will be built and the new order established.

Wild theories. Do you really want me to prove you an idiot?

Isaiah 53, or Isaiah 52:13-53:12, taken from the Book of Isaiah, is the last of the four Songs of the Suffering Servant, and tells the story of a "Man of Sorrows" or "God's Suffering Servant".

Jewish scripture in Isaiah 52:13 through Isaiah 53:12 describes the servant of the Lord[1] as the Nation of Israel itself: "My Servant..." (Isaiah 53:11), "... a man of pains and accustomed to illness ... " (Isaiah 53:3). "The theme of Isaiah is jubilation, a song of celebration at the imminent end of the Babylonian Captivity".[2] Judaism sees this passage, especially "God's Suffering Servant", being written over 2500 years before nowadays, without a reference to the king Mashiach. Jewish teaching also does take note of the historical context in which God's Suffering Servant appears, particularly because it speaks in the past tense. The Jewish nation has borne unspeakable injustices, under Assyria, Babylonia, Ancient Greece, ancient Rome, Nazi Germany, which are all gone, and bears persecution and targeted mission to this day.[3] Jewish scripture in Isaiah speaks in the light, when it says:

"Israel is my Servant ..." (41:[4]
"You are My witnesses says the Lord, and My Servant whom I have chosen ..." (43:10)[4]
"For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of My people, He was stricken..." (53:[5]
"My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear ..."(53:11)[6]

Many Christians believe the "Man of Sorrows" or the "Suffering Servant" to be a reference to the prophecy of the Ministry of Jesus, which became a common theme in medieval and later Christian art. The passage of 'Isaiah 53' is known for its interpretation and use by Christian Theologians and Missionaries, many of whom identify the servant to be Christ Jesus. Many Christians view the entire chapter, and particularly this passage to refer to the Passion of Christ as well as the absolution of sins believed to be made possible by his sacrificial death.[7]


Wikipedia.

Ooops perhaps I was right after all. That is what the Jews believe. Not my wild

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Acts 10:26. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. circa 40 CE. A bit different to centuries. Wrong again.

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Wiki again.

Pauline Christianity is the Christianity associated with the beliefs and doctrines espoused by Paul the Apostle through his writings. Most of Christianity relies heavily on these teachings and considers them to be amplifications and explanations of the teachings of Jesus. So we have Pauls interpretation of what Jesus meant. On some things the disciples in Jerusalem and Paul did not agree.

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Clearly not everyone did. Look at the persecution of the disciples and Paul when they preached this. Again Christianity did not explode as a religion. You should read history of the time, and not the exaggerations of the Biblical narrative.

Of course Lucifer is not in the OT. Perhaps I was not clear. The KJV has it due to an early church father using the term and it was in use for centuries. Lucifer is not a name - it is a term for morning star. It has been assumed for centuries that this verse referred to a fallen angel. It is really a reference as I said.

Now I have given you some modern references, rather than rely on my memory or notes.

For all your insults my facts are quite clear and based on scripture and history.

Perhaps the fact that people don't debate with me is that they agree with me.

 

Have you reviewed your post? I can barely make heads from tails of it. Also, where are your references? You provide nothing. You just label blurbs of text as "Wikipedia". How about you just link the source and clean up your post so its legible, OK?

 

He's God. I think he could just know if he wanted.

 

You could make head or tails of it if you did a bit of study. Have you no brains? None of it is beyond those who want to know.
Try typing ' Isaiah 53 on wiki' into Google and see what you get for a start. . Heaven help us. We have to do all your work for you.
You will never understand anything without a lot of study and it appears you're too lazy for that. How do you think I learnt without all the modern conveniences which make study much easier today. I started studying in the 1960's and apart from a break in my middle years still study at 76. I don't know everything about the Bible, Christianity and Judaism, and never will. But I try.