For those who think the election doubters have no grounds-

It's not what Trump has presented, it's the conduct of the left from the beginning.
A conspiracy isn't always a bunch of people meeting and plotting in dark of night. Most of the time, it's planting the seeds and cultivating a mindset, like takes place in a cult or dictatorship that uses propaganda and human weakness to make it's people into sheep that follow and no longer think for themselves. I've presented the logic of this many times. When common sense falls on deaf ears that chose not to hear- nothing changes.

What does change in such circumstances is the strength and vitality of the nation. Honor is dismissed as old fashioned, order is replaced by chaos, and the priorities that keep a nation focused on it's future and quality- are replaced with short-term sound-good distractions that promote divisions in the people.

All those things are happening right now. Leadership is doing the kind of things that are common to corrupt banana republics. Ignoring the real needs of the people. By-passing the constitution. Using the law as a weapon, a cloak for political chicanery. Ignoring the things increasingly making life difficult for the citizens, so they must focus on surviving today instead of the direction the nation is being taken.

You speak of being "amenable to reason", but you aren't bothered by the fact that the people in power are promoting that state of affairs, nor suspect the kind of character that represents would stoop to fraud.
Musk said it. "It's easy to fool people, but almost impossible to convince them they have been fooled." This isn't just about Trump or that election. It's about allowing such corruption of the fundamental elements of liberty and democracy to be compromised. The consequences of that will be with our citizens long after Trump is gone, and you and I are dead. It's like the legacy we leave to them- and anyone with self respect has to be deeply ashamed of it.

It takes strong, independent people to build a solid nation. Given that fact- you should recognize that leadership promoting dependence, manipulating people with propaganda and buying votes has no intention of your living in a strong nation, of your being independent- and they have the kind of moral character required to support that. It's ugly. They don't even know how to be honest.

 

I explained the Democrat plan in some detail, and its difference from normal campaign shenanigans is obvious. Of course it was not widely reported. It was a semi-surreptitious Democrat operative effort that the main stream media would have zero interest in reporting.

 

So, you have no empirical data to challenge, in any legal or legislative venue, the thoroughly-examined (via state recounts, audits, investigations, and dozens of court appeals) what was, according to Christopher Krebs, the loser's own director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (the Trump administration's most senior cybersecurity official responsible for securing the presidential election) the most secure election in the nation's history.

The 2020 US election was the most secure in American history, according to US elections officials.​

“The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double-checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result,” the coordinating bodies on election infrastructure and security said in a joint statement issued by the Department of Homeland Security’s Cybersecurity & Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA).​

In concurrence with the certitude of President Biden's election in 2020, most Americans had registered disapproval of Trump consistently and relentlessly throughout his four year regime, and there was a consensus of presidential polls prior to the election that were entirely consistent with the certified results.

Trump could not handle the truth that he lost, and zealots who worship the loser as being above the law eagerly swallow his discredited lies. Impartial, objective criteria have determined otherwise.

The loser's tantrums, his vicious outbursts, his contempt for the will of the People, and for America's justice system, will remain a matter of record, in perpetuity, of course.

Yes, Trump's goons in 2021 killed the nation's proud and noble tradition of peaceful transfers of power that had dated back to 1789. All previous losers, however reluctantly, were able to handle the truth. Let us hope that such patriotism is once again exhibited and that Trump's repugnant behavior will be acknowledged as an ugly aberration in the future.

Bill Barr says Donald Trump 'knew well he lost the election'

McConnell's Final Remark to Trump Was 'You Lost the Election'

'Detached from reality': Trump insiders worked to convince him he lost.

Fact check: Trump lost the 2020 presidential election

AP FACT CHECK: Yes, Trump lost election despite what he says

Trump privately admitted he lost 2020 election, top aides testify


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If there was ever a plan to overthrow the government, it was the orchestrated effort to paint Trump as a wanna-be dictator, racist and killer of democracy that the left used to line up support for a propaganda campaign to "save the nation" from Trump in 2020. Efforts in 2016 had failed, thus it was necessary to come up something better. The plan was very broad, and one would have to say a coup of sorts in manipulating politics. It targeted altering voting rules and processes, cultivating wealth and power, influence of the media and generally was designed in two parts; first as a broad character assassination, and second backed up by vote manipulation if needed- bottom line, to not leave the perceptions of choice of electing the president to the voters at all. The people supporting this became convinced they were doing it for your own good.

Such things have to have labels that give people the impression they are good and necessary, so that otherwise honorable people can be led to believe they are obligated, that the means which seems questionable is justified by the end. Thus the terminology focused on hateful labeling and distortions; the pretense of necessity- to induce people to lower standards they would otherwise uphold. There is no question this was done; in fact some major publications documented it in detail, the plan to save the country from Trump. It sounded remarkably similar to the way numerous unscrupulous leaders have gained control of governments and nations before; it was cloaked in righteousness based on deceptions, so it could be defended as necessary. Some of this was legal- dirty politics to say the least, but not criminal. Other parts that aren't fully revealed but had to be and obviously were there- would have been criminal.

As to why those things were not exposed- that is something explained by the fact that when you influence the power of justice, you control the expression of justice. If that were not happening, the people who contrived the dossier and supported the scheme to say Trump colluded with Russia for 3 years would have met with some kind of consequence- but none have. When you can get away with something like that, you are likely to think you can get away with most anything.

I believe that most people respect the truth- some, only when the conditions leave no choice. I also know that most people are more inclined to believe comfortable lies than uncomfortable truths. That is our vulnerability, the weakness that allows deception in politics to persist. Real answers and gains require facing the truth, comfortable or not- and courage.
A free people must have an honest government and honest leaders. If we lack the courage to demand it, we will not be free.

 

Everything you are describing is true.

You're just attributing it to the wrong group.

You have described Trump and the MAGA movement to a T.

 

There's no question that Trump technically lost the election. That does not mean it was an honest election. You can lose your ass at the poker table too- either because you are a poor player, or because the game is crooked. I don't think you understand that.

Joe was undeniably a lousy candidate with weak following and already a two-time loser. Trump a hugely popular candidate as well as incumbent. Joe hid in the basement. Trump hit the road and set the voters on fire all over the nation.
Joe wins. You don't suspect a thing?

Aside from the overall plan to save the nation from Trump that the dems quietly contrived and orchestrated after the Dossier scam failed, just those facts alone would make any rational person aware that something was wrong.

 

It's really tiring to see that childish rebuttal thrown out over and over. It's BS, you know it's BS, and if you don't.... Damn.

 

Trump, unquestionably, lost the election as his four years of unpopularity presaged, and attacked democracy and the American justice system as a consequence of his inability to handle the loss and place the nation's stability and integrity above his thwarted selfish ambition.

More Americans preferred Biden to Trump, so Biden received more popular and electoral votes.

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Was either campaigns pure and chaste in every respect? I doubt it. They never are.

 

Of course not. After four years of relentless disapproval in national polls, there was clearly a majority of voters eager to dump Trump. The election results were what one would expect.

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No. After the 2016 election (in which nearly 3 million more Americans voted for Trump's opponent, two Republican-led Senate committees confirmed the findings of the FBI, NSA, and CIA that Russia conspired to help Trump and hurt Clinton. Trump's senior campaign personnel secretly met with Russian agents at Trump Tower. Trump's acting Attorney General, a Republican, appointed a Republican Special Counsel to investigate it to determine whether there was active coordination with Putin. He was unable to make a definitive determination, one way or the other.

Trump senior adviser Steve Bannon was "particularly scathing about a June 2016 meeting involving Trump’s son Donald Jr, son-in-law Jared Kushner, then campaign chairman Paul Manafort and Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya at Trump Tower in New York. A trusted intermediary had promised documents that would “incriminate” rival Hillary Clinton but instead of alerting the FBI to a potential assault on American democracy by a foreign power, Trump Jr replied in an email: 'I love it!'”​

Some Trump worshipers even tried to claim his recorded crude and vulgar statements on the "Access Hollywood" tape were faked by Democrats.

At some point the cultish paranoia must defer to the facts.

 

You guys refuse to accept the fact that people voted AGAINST trump not FOR biden.

 

You must have missed 2015 through 2024.

 

Natty Bumpo-
All this raises the question of what kind of nation and government you are willing to support.
And TAKE NOTE- It's NOT about Trump, other than he becomes the excuse for a derailment of democracy by corrupt people. This is about the survival of freedom and democracy, and the efforts to undermine them.

IF you want a true democracy, a free country- our elections must be legitimate. One qualified person, one honest vote. However- that vote must be free will, AND based on the voters access to information with as high a level of truth as possible.

IF you manipulate the system, alter the processes of voting and manipulate the facts with the specific purpose of controlling the outcome- You have plotted to defeat the democratic process and the electoral process. You may be proclaiming democracy- because it serves as a shield to the fact you are destroying it.

That DID take place. Not just as isolated incidents, opinions and local decisions- but as a comprehensive nationwide plan contrived by the left and the liberals. Kept secret or at low visibility as a whole, and specifically contrived to "Save the 2020 election", and save the nation from Trump. They branded this with claims of righteousness and the concept implied that it was necessary to steal the election to keep Trump from stealing the election.

This wasn't a plan to WIN the election demonstrating merit and allowing the people to vote and accepting their decision. Not to allow the people to vote their will, without interference. But to actually "save" the democratic process by rigging it in a multitude of ways- all of which obstruct and violate the basic premises of democracy.

That may not bother you. But it's not only true, it's been published and reported in major news media- but of course, it's sprinkled with justifications and labeled as some great effort to save us. Hitler's propaganda people would have endorsed it in a heartbeat. A justified sabotage of an election to save the nation.

People talk about a field of grey- and anything, such as honor, can be described in that way as a gradient of degrees. Somewhere across that field- you have to define what you stand for by drawing a line that defines acceptability, and refusing to tolerate anything that falls below it. That takes a clear and open mind, standards you respect- and courage to live by them.

I know who I am. I value my self-respect above anything else- and I earn that from myself by living up to the standards I believe are just and fair, every day. I won't lower my standards for anyone.
I know where my line is. It's not negotiable. It's not for sale. And- it doesn't tolerate or support corruption- nor forces trying to label their enemies as corrupt to conceal or justify their own corruption.
While nobody's perfect and we all make mistakes, I weigh my decisions and perceptions far more carefully than most. I can do that honestly because I am a strong person, I can afford to be wrong.

Lincoln said-
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”
The problem comes with the percentage of people who can be fooled in a society- and the difficulty of convincing them they have been fooled. If you can't, that foolishness becomes a social or political entity that is totally unaware it's sold itself out and is being used. The results tell the story.

Look around you at the state of America today. What you see is what society is "tolerating"- permitting- by supporting the kind of people who are in power today. They gotcha; and you don't even know it.

 

Maverick's Pappy said, "You can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, and them's purty good odds."

 

In November, 2016, Hillary Clinton conceded immediately and graciously, reflecting the tradition of peaceful transfer of power that had made America great from 1789 until January 6, 2021.

"Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country.
I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans."​

 

And Trump's popularity is the living embodiment of that quote.

 

As a patriotic American, I respect the will of the People as expressed in democratic elections, and the American justice system that demands credible evidence when the will of the People is challenged.

The Cry Baby Loser persist il lying, but democracy and the rule of law have triumphed. Neither the blatant lies, nor the goon attacks on Congress, nor the intimidation of Republican governors and secretaries of state, nor the maligning of public servants, nor the fake elector schemes have overcome participatory democracy.

Huzzah!

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And then civilly watched as the Democrats put on the biggest effort ever, lasting six years now, to overthrow a sitting president by any means conceivable, not just puny election challenges

 

Yes, under law, as the Founding Fathers estblished, there is an impeachment process.

Attempts to overthrow the will of the People by inciting goon attacks on outnumbered police defending Congress is the type of offense that triggers such legal recourse.

 

Democracy has not triumphed, we are hanging on to it by a thread. If you think what is going on now is "triumph", I'd hate to live in a world you think was defeat.

 

Neither of Pelosi's impeachments were within light years of what the founding fathers and the framers had in mind. They rued the possibility of the impeachment clause being used for political gain.

 

They did?Source?

 

Your personal bias in the legislative processes in noted.

The Loser was only saved from Senate conviction after he incited his goons to attack Congress by the excuse that he was no longer President anyway.

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Really? What did they "envision"?

 

There was just enough fraud to sway the election. Georgia, for example. When I went to bed at 1 am, Trump was comfortably ahead. When I woke up, and after them counting votes at night without observers present, he had lost by about 10,000 votes statewide. No fraud though, nothing to see here. So, they did a count to verify the votes. Well, duh. If I have a hundred votes in and a hundred votes out. they match (everything is legit). The only problem is they never verified signatures or other information on those ballots. But no fraud here, nothing to see ... move on. BS to the extreme. And don't even bother to respond, you're wasting your time.

 

The impeachment clause was put in because they felt a need for congress to be able to remove the president (and vice president, and federal officers) for egregious breakage of the public trust of the presidency. They did not want a 2000 page constitution (for excellent reasoning) so they did not spend much time on specifics. Explicitly describing every requirement for impeachment would have taken 20 or so pages and, as they knew, still would miss something. They did openly express their fear that the clause could open the door to political mischief or for political gain but they had to way to express that, again in less than 5 or 6 pages. Their fear is well taken. Johnson's impeachment was mostly political; Clinton's was half political (congress had at least violation of the justice system, perjury in a grand jury, and some other substantial stuff); Trump's impeachment's were 100% conjured up for political advancement. Hell, Democrats were calling for impeachment before he was even president.