God Given Rights

human rights, if they exist, cannot be stripped away by disobeying some god figure.

 

Your only looking at it through your point of view. Try opening your eyes. The woman and children from the enemy that Moses took in, was saved and helped, they had given them knowledge of our Father. Do you think the tribe in which these woman and children lived, was not already under tyranny or rape? Seriously C'MON MAN!

 

So raping women is ok and is to be forgiven so long as they are also taught the Bible? How is that not evil?

 

So many have responded to this thread attempting to inject their own religious prejudice into the discussion.

I've attempted to explain in many posts already that this is a discussion of political philosophy, not of religion.

So if you can clear your mind of your aversion to all things religious perhaps we can try a little exercise.

Let's say there are 4 countries and each has different laws. You can choose which country you would like to be a citizen of.



[table="width: 1000, class: grid, align: left"]
[tr]
[td]Country A[/td]
[td]Democratic Rights[/td]
[td]The people decide individual rights[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Country B[/td]
[td]Intellectual Rights[/td]
[td]A Class of intellectuals decide rights[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Country C[/td]
[td]Benevolent Rights[/td]
[td]A benevolent leader decides rights[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Country D[/td]
[td]Dogmatic Rights[/td]
[td]Inherent unchangable rights, same for everyone[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

In country A, the people all get one vote to decide individual rights.
In country B, the intellectual class of elite intelligentsia gets to decide individual rights.
In country C, a kind and benevolent ruler gets to decide individual rights.
In country D, the rights you have are the rights you were born with, they never change and are the same for everyone.

Which country would you choose and why?

If you choose country A and democratic rights, then the people decide. But a majority of people could decide that some people don't have the same rights as the majority. By a majority vote, they could decide to take away the rights of the minority.

If you choose country B and intellectual rights, the most intelligent people get to decide what rights everyone has. But who decides who is the most intelligent? What is to stop them from becoming tyrannical, and abusing the people by taking away rights?

If you choose country C and benevolent rights, a kind ruler will decide what rights the people have. But what is to stop him from becoming abusive of the people and taking away rights?

If you choose country D, your rights are yours at birth and nobody, no government, has the right to take them away. Nobody has more rights and nobody has less rights.

If you chose country D, you have chosen unalienable rights. We call these rights in political philosophy "God given rights" because they are yours by virtue of your creation. Because of the laws of nature and nature's God, each person has the freedom to choose for themselves what to do with their lives.

 

Except we don't live in Country D. We live in Country B.

At any time, the Constitution could be amended by voting and your rights could be expanded or removed.

 

I just want to know the name of the schools you attended. If this is your understanding of the events of Moses in the Bible. I would tell people to stay clear of the school's in which you attended.

 

If the women did not have a choice, it is rape. Just because you are "nice" to her doesn't make the rape any better or more justified. If you believe that, you scare me.

 

You mean the Moses who had hundreds murdered for choosing to worship a different God? I'd steer clear of your schools since you would call those murders moral.

 

What you are missing is the fact that women had no choices anywhere in the world. They was constantly raped, bastard children was everywhere. Get over this notion that the days of Moses was beautiful.

 

Too bad your God was too dumb to put "Don't rape women ever. Not even if they are captured in war. If you rape a woman, you will be put to death and she will get all of your possessions as well your tribe will be required to financially support her" In the Bible.

 

Oh, that's good to know too. I thought that was the case. Didn't check for myself...TY

 

The problem with Dogmatic given rights is that they are meaningless unless you can prove that these rights really were given by God and not just made up by some herdsmen thousands of years ago. Anyone can say that a law is God given, this is how the nobles justified droit du seigneur.

Another problem with dogmatic law is that it is unchanging. What does the Bible say about the right to online privacy? What does the Bible say about the right to bear arms? Laws need to be able to be changed as a society changes.

 

Unfortunately you are correct. We are ruled by a bunch of know it alls who know nothing and who are becoming tyrannical, and abusing the people by taking away rights. We need to get back to country D

- - - Updated - - -

Its not about god but that there is a power higher than man. Call it mother nature if you like.

 

The irrefutable fact is that you keep talking about religious dogma in a discussion about political philosophy
and don't understand that it is not a religious discussion.

 

Why didn't God say then "Don't rape women for it is an abomination. Instead treat all women with dignity and protect them whether they are your wife or not"?

 

Here's why I disagree with you. Why is the right to free speech superior than say the right to assemble? After all, if there is no right to assemble, then who is there to speak to? Also, I think the #2A people would disagree with you. They would say that the #2A gives people the ability to fight a tyrannical government. Without it, there is nothing to stop them. They would likely argue that the #2A is a prime right.

But as I said, you are free to make that argument, I just don't agree that there is any such thing as a "prime right".

 

Again, how do you know which laws are given by a higher power and which ones are made up by scammers and opportunists?

There is an experiment that a lab supposedly performed where a group of monkey were put in a room with a ladder and at the top of the ladder and bunch of bananas. Whenever a monkey climbed the ladder, the other monkeys would be sprayed with cold water. Soon, any monkey that climbed the ladder would be beat up by the other monkeys because they didn't want to get sprayed. Then the researchers replaced one of the monkeys with a new one and when that monkey tried to climb the ladder, he was beat up so he wouldn't climb the ladder. Then the researchers replaced another and another and each one would at first try to climb the ladder to get the bananas but then were beat up by the others, until finally none of the original monkeys remained, The monkeys that remained knew that they were not allowed to go up the ladder even though they had no idea why but the followed the rules without question. Some people are like this too.

 

Do you even know what the Midianites did to God and his people? Are you just picking parts out of the Bible without understanding the context around them? If what you say is truly how you feel, than it is the Midianites you should be calling out.

 

Try this exercise:

 

Some people say we live in Country B because of the Supreme Court and their tyrannical rulings.

Others say we live in Country C because of the out of control executive currently in office.

We do live in a post-Constitutional Era where the rule of law and the Constitution is being usurped and the
peasants are too stupid to understand that.

 

The Midianite committed crimes therefore their young girls deserved to be raped? You're going to call that moral?

- - - Updated - - -

We live in Country B because at any time the "intellectuals" aka "elected politicians" can vote to amend the Constitution and change the rights that people have.

Our country was established as country B.

 

I just read on Moses and the Midianites. I have found nothing that oks rape. However the Midianites do.

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

30 And of the children of Israel's half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37 And the LORD'S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD'S tribute was threescore and one.

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD'S tribute was thirty and two persons.

41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD'S heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel's half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons

47 Even of the children of Israel's half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

 

Read verse 18 again.

Or better yet, stop being an apologist for rape.

 

Although it can be said that the political philosophy is derived from men who believe in Divine Rights granted to
us by God, it is an point irrelevant to the fact that people of all faiths, or no faith enjoy the freedom of God given
rights. We live in a nation that by design, gives us unalienable rights due to the guiding philosophy of those men
of faith. So regardless of whether or not there is a God, regardless of whether or not you believe in a God, you
and every person in the United States of America enjoy the fruits of their labors, which is to say, we all benefit
from the form of government and the God given rights, freedoms and liberties which by design were inspired
by the political philosophy of the founders and the philosophers of The Enlightenment.

To once again bring religion or the bible into the discussion is superfluous. This is not the right subject to
discuss Christianity or Judaism or what the Bible says. What the Bible says has nothing to do with this
discussion of political philosophy. God given rights are not derived from the Bible, but from the belief
system of the Founders and philosophers of The Enlightenment Era.

 

In 1776, did blacks have the same "God given rights" as whites?