Good point. I have been wanting to get away from these Scottish winters and if they choose default, with the devalued currency looks like this year could be the time!
Common sense implies that it should be possible at some point to expell a nation from the Eurozone for bad behavior. However I've never got an answer as to how it could be done or what behavior would be bad enough. I myself think that not obeying austerity demands wouldn't be enough but that printing a trillion Euros when the other countries didn't want that done would be. I don't know if preferances in favor of domestic payees or printing $50 billion extra Euros would be enough to merit expulsion. I also suspect that a lot of Europeans wouldn't know what would happen if Greece did 1 or both of these things. Certainly if 16 votes out of the 17 nations are required (if 17 were required Greece could veto its own expulsion) it would be very difficult to obtain. If only 9 or 12 votes were required it would be much easier to expell a member. Maybe 15 would be a reasonable number as it would prevent two nations from making a pact to prevent the other's expulsion and thus they could basically do whatever they wanted. If 3 nations want to make such a pact expulsion is probably a bad idea. Greece could also put presure on Germany be hinting that if Germany gets them expelled from the Eurozone that will consider raising money by granting Army, Air and Navy bases to Russia. I'm sure Russia would like to have bases in the heart of NATO territory and that Germany wouldn't want Russian forces as close as Greece.
Euro is dropping German exports are increasing , why there is a problem ? You still think that Italy or Portugal will vote for their future expulsion ?
Give me a break. I know what they are "known as". I want to know WHY they are known as that. Why do YOU think it is, or are you just blindly following what others say? Incidentally Sky News said this morning that they are a Far Left party, probably because they have left wing economic policies! And let's hope they are considering how they can remain in the euro and still reject austerity measures for everyone's sake.
You are just being deliberately argumentative and trying to destroy a thread because of your little wish to change reality. You check them up. If you want to start a thread on them feel free. There is already a thread on far right nationalism. Just don't destroy this thread which is about a real ongoing issue by flame baiting and deflecting from the topic. FIY http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatIsLeftOrRightWing Now use your intelligence to work it out. I have seen other threads on this forum with right wingers trying to argue Nazism is not right wing. Take it there. This thread is on the Greek elections. I will not answer any more of this baiting.
I wasn't being deliberately anything. This was a genuine attempt to try to understand and I addressed it with you because you started the thread and used the term "right wing" with regard to Golden Dawn only because, it seems, other people do and you accept their analysis. The Nazis are not right or left wing, they're just repulsive, nasty and twisted. There's nothing "progressive" or "liberal" or "conservative" about today's traditionally left or right wing parties, but they're all "regressive". The terms left and right have become meaningless. God preserve us from Socialists thinking they've a right to the moral high ground, and even more from Socialists who think they can read their opponents' minds. Your comment regarding not replying has been gratefully noted.
...on what planet don't the right have a monopoly on those again? They can be reconciled by the financial sector accepting that the circumstances are exceptional and they may have to take some responsibility for the position they've put everyone in and....write it off. It's not like they're short of money... Greece is not in the same position as some other EU countries. It didn't have enough time to build up reserves to cope with this crap. And the ridiculous bailout is an unreasonable solution. They need to come up with an alternative that works for everyone, not just for the rich. I read something yesterday which pointed out there is no mechanism in place for a country to exit the Euro. How much are we paying these eejits to run Europe? In all their drafting and debating, they haven't done the very first thing a kid does when learning to ride a bike....learn how to work the brakes when it goes wrong.
Golden eggs are far right , their thugs are bullying workers on strike and praise the military junta of the 60's . Their core membership is still small , i remember them meeting with other Euronazis in Ios back in the 90's the faces haven't change much. If you have seen videos of last summer's riots they are the ones that got beaten at the start of the day , they usually side with the police and do as they told .
Umm, this one, Viv. LOL! Meanwhile, back on planet Earth, of course they could, but the financial sector is not going to accept any more of the write off than they've already done. The financial sector should have accepted the total write off in the first place, but politicians authorised massive tax payer funded bailouts that taxpayers will not see reimbursement of. Politicians on the left and the supposed right socialised the losses. Greece is in the same position as every one else. Yes the banks were at fault, but Greece borrowed of its own free will. It brought this crap on itself. Don't borrow what you can't afford to pay back and balance the budget: elementary economics. What solution could possibly work for everyone? The solutions put forward seem to work pretty well for the banks, but nothing put forward so far seems to work for anyone else. I suppose you'd support the "experts" of the UN human rights wing in their efforts to get a global financial transaction tax? This is socialism on a worldwide scale. It is not going to end well.
It should worry everyone in Europe that mainstream parties are so bad that people are willing to vote for extremist parties like Golden Dawn.
Mainstream parties are bad because they put plutocracy's interest above people's. States exist to support their population not the bankers , if there is any party that has it's priorities right of course betrayed impoverished people are going to vote for it . What you have to understand here is that the nazi base is very small , i can post videos of them confronting anarchists and get outnumbered 10 to 1 but i am a noob here and i don't wanna risk an infraction for showing violent videos.
The Nazi base in the UK is even smaller, and it also has left wing economic policies. They have nowhere near enough support to get them represented in parliament, but perhaps they will if the UK ever faces the same problems. I think you're right about not posting violent videos, but I should think you'd be ok posting terms to google for anyone who's interested. Maybe you could ask a mod, or maybe it's not necessary? It is clear that Golden Dawn are not the kind of people you'd want as your neighbours, to put it mildly!
Masses of people that keep voting in times of chaos and economic turmoil. That can mean a repeat of German history in Greece. This is 'virus' is already spreading to Spain, and can spread like wild fire throughout Europe if nothing happens, if nobody warns. Brussels/EU not warning about European history (the three empires), politics not warning, the media not warning, and if they warn it's the same system that warns that caused all these problems, cannot be trusted. The Greek people are going to make the same historical error as the German people if they keep giving the 'Greek' elite/rulers in top of power again power (ofcourse they will, because nobody was ever told how they could take over Germany, by revolution and elections via economics and politics (rethoric)
Mutmekep what do you think about the Police in Greece. I am asking because I read that around half of the votes for Golden Dawn were reckoned to have been from them and then today I found this http://liveraf.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/police-and-fascists-attempt-raid-on-greek-socialists/
[video=youtube;2Hk2FqoZoOQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Hk2FqoZoOQ[/video] Trolling level MASTER (action starts in 1:12 ) KKE and SYRIZA PMs provoke a GS PM to attack them in live TV Well done !
Here's the story in English http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/07/golden-dawn-tv-assault-greece?INTCMP=SRCH
The Greeks are voting today and on this hangs the future of Europe. I am torn, the rebellious heart hopes the Greek people vote to shove it. That other voice says, what is going to happen to the Greeks and by default (banking pun there) to us all, if they vote against the EU charted course? It's a long hard road ahead either way and however they vote, most Greek Parties intend to renegotiate terms with the EU, which won't make the market happy. Papandreou is today saying Europe needs to forget nationalism, eradicate more economic differences and eradicate even differences in government structures like benefits. He is pushing total integration. One wonders if this is behind the whole EU "crisis". To make such a statement about integration would normally alienate countries like UK, whose people are against surrendering any more sovereignty. However, if the crisis worsens then conditions are created under which the EU, or something similar, can justify moving EU countries onto an even closer footing. Imagine how much money could be saved if all EU countries shared one government IT system. One outer border, one benefit system, one tax system (no more evasion for you, Greece)....it would be so much cheaper....
Not following . Are you suggesting that the Western Europe and the Economy and Trade Sections are too full? Are you implying that contributors are too stupid to notice your preferred Topic when the Posts are so concentrated on other matters ? Don't believe it , Viv . If the Topic resonates , it will find its contributors . If you are asking for special considerations because Americans cannot cope with complex scenarios , I privately agree 100% , but I can't see that idea being either popular or accepted by the very people it is being aimed at . As it happens , I don't agree with your premiss either --- that the Greek vote determines the future of Europe . The Euro has been terminal for a long time in its present form for a long time , as has the future of Europe itself . But you presumably have not accepted those deaths yet , and prefer to grieve at your own pace , along with others holding out pious hopes of miracles . Pragmatically I would have thought the news was best buried in the Western Europe section .That way minimises the number of Americans who invade with their barmy notions of how they think we live and the role the State plays in matters --- coming from a crypto Fascist country that bombs and kills all over the world and has run up a total Debt of over $100 trillion once all obligations are accounted for
The OP is about how the Greek vote may impact on all of us. Greece is an EU member, the Euro is the European currency for many countries and as I am posting on how it is going to affect UK, I think it's ok to debate this Eurowide topic in any part of the Euro forum. If you have a moderation query about the location of the thread, address to a Mod. They are voting in the general election and the outcome will impact on all of us. Is your premise that it won't affect anyone but the Greeks? We'll see. There won't be any crocodile tears, but remember the state of the UK economy pre-EU...why would anyone rush to destroy the benefits it has produced? It is also wider than just an economic union, it is about peace and cooperation in Europe. US people are free to post here, their views are as welcome and more reasoned than those of some Euros and often they give a relatively objective opinion which is valuable. Why would detractors have more defined experience of how US lives, than US people have about UK...
The Greek people didn't vote to join the EU. Now it looks like they may vote to leave it - or at least try to vote in people who will leave it. Perhaps the people should have been given the chance to decide whether or not to join, instead of having it forced on them by their politicians and bureaucrats.
First exit poll has ND at 29% and Syriza at 27% but as we all know exit polls are often wrong. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gre...ve?commentpage=all#start-of-comments#block-27 the BBC says the difference could be as little as 0.5%
(I asked the Mods to merge my Greece thread with this one, I didn't see it before posting.) So what will that mean if it's an even split, as the News is just repeating it's likely to be? A coalition? ... back where we started... And more delay over the EU/Euro situation. This in-out tension is causing havoc everywhere... [video=youtube;4E5F2iDg0FU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E5F2iDg0FU&feature=related[/video]
Just love your PC response . What American contributors consistently have shown that they understand this matter ? They don't know how it was caused , by whom or when .Show me clear proof otherwise and I will withdraw . But frankly that is as crucial as Scotland wanting Independence . Zero . My single point was -- and I had hoped it was clearly put -- is that regardless of the vote , the EZ and EU ( as we presently know it ) are Walking Dead patients . When Italy goes down shortly , there is no money available to devise any imaginary firewalls made of imaginary bonds . Greece is containable though short term the chaos will be greater if they default . But it is Spain and Italy that will push the EZ and EU over the cliff edge . Sure, Cyprus , Greece , Ireland and Portugal don't help but it is the next level of contagion that brings the House of Cards tumbling down . Gather round for the best bonfire ever .
The provisional results of the Greek election are now in http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gre...eek-elections-greece-polls-live?newsfeed=true That means that theoretically if these results hold New Democracy could form a government with Pasok. However the Pasok leader has said that they will not form a coalition with ND unless Syriza is part of it and Syriza has apparently said that would be a bit like exchanging cooking recipes with cannibals. So, maybe no change. Germany has said it is prepared to be a bit more flexible about debt.
Are you expecting me to respond to any of that? Germany can't do it all. Greece has to sort out its own game plan. Belgium rattled about for a very long time trying to sort out a coalition and Greece doesn't have that option if they're going to save the world.
