I wasn't suggesting Germany was going to do 'it all'. Just reporting that they were saying they could be more flexible with Greece's debt - allowing time for reforms. It will of course be up to the Greeks whether they find the situation tolerable. I don't think anyone, myself included knows how this will end - both with Greece and the EU as a whole. Certainly the BBC seems to believe that there is quite some way to go before their is stability in Greece. I was just mentioning that while the results were coming through Germany was saying that she would be prepared to be more flexible. There seems to be a strong desire in Greece to stay in the Euro but also a strong desire to get out of the dead end of austerity which does not seem to be producing anything except more debt. There were also elections in France today which gave an overall majority to the left which will be good for Hollande and may see a change in orientation in the EU. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9336591/Greek-election-Live.html Perhaps Mutmekep will come on and let us know how it feels within Greece.
How it feels? Well Tsipras didn't wanted to win the elections and they were very careful about driving voters away . The new government is expected to continue the way to destruction and chaos , this means SYRIZA will probably win next elections with vast majority without the dangers of failing since the country will be Malawi or Rwanda by then. 40% of the voters supported the beach party and maybe this was the best option given how hot the day was and how incapable politicians are.I think this elections were indicative on the way Greeks understand the world , for those too off to understand it is "today it is a wonderful day screw tomorrow" . What is very interesting is PASOK ( that they didn't won any prefecture for the first time since 1977 ) choosing to cooperate with the neoliberals knowing that this will mean their political extermination , someone will think that they are doing this to avoid visiting the court for the scandals they were involved .
I didn't hear he was driving voters away but did hear he was pleased to be in opposition which is understandable as, as you say below those in power now are finished. Ah, are they free from prosecution while in Government? I do not know what is going to happen. It is to be hoped some way can be found which will give some leeway to Greece. Otherwise we probably are just going through a delaying time. Democracy though is not so easy for Greece, and other countries now. I was reading this yesterday http://www.dahrendorf-symposium.eu/...Series/Dahrendorf_Symposia_Series_2012_02.pdf It is also concerning that New Dawn got almost as many votes and apparently some people chose to vote for them because of the tv incident you reported above!
Yes they are due to a law made by Mr Venizelos ( his real name is Turkoglu btw ) Bah, they got their votes from areas with many immigrants or traditionally right wing prefectures like Laconia . Problem for them is that they had gone too far and too physical with the commies , as GS of KKE stated after the elections they will "deal with the nazis in an appropriate way" .
Greek Politicians have to read the results correct, Even I have doubts that SYRIZA doesn't have ability to agree on a common strategy to lead the country and enough experience. There is no meaning to support the thiefs, fake liberals or fake Socialists anymore. Nea Democratia and PASOK already finished the credit. It worths to give chance to SYRIZA. Europe can give only free trawel to Greece anymore. Sure it is good to have a EU passport but it is not everything. Greeks have to see that as EU gave many things, they also kept many things from Grecee.
However, even if Greece was self-caused running into the trouble, can we watch the Greeks going into unemployment and poverty? It was also the Euro that gave the opportunity to countries like Greece to create mountains of debt. This is not, if Greece should keep the Euro or not. It is about not to let the country fall into a big hole.
The guy appointed as head in Bank of "Greece" (94% belongs to foreigners) was the head of the Greek committee when we joined eurozone , you know like one of the chefs that cooked the books. Enjoy ! *Greece never fails , we are around for 4000 years get a clue !
Germany will never see this money again, not matter, if you pay it back or not. For the highly unlikely case that you are going to pay your debts some day, the money goes to the KfW, which provides that money as loans and investments to companies all across the EU and the world. "In September of 2008, as investors were scrambling to get their funds out of Lehman, KfW wired 426 million to Lehman. Germany's largest circulation newspaper, Bild, called KfW "Germany's Dumbest Bank" " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KfW Oh no, the first letter must be a "B". Its BRD. Or FRG in English. Funding Republic of Germany. Can you counter this?
Will never see what money? do we get to see them either? I think i have posted it 20 times already : ECB gives money to Greece but those money do not stay here they go back to ECB as interest while the ECB presents our ballooning debt as an asset . Keep pretending you are giving us something. you ask me to give a term for Germany that starts with an F , really ?
Wrong, you get the money to pay other debts. Its a loan conversion, that saves you from the total bankruptcy. Do you know what the current interest of Greek 10 years bonds is? I tell you: 24,855 % (Germany: 1,41 %). That´s just good, it went down from 376 % in November 2011. You do not have to take the money! Just turn it away. You have no right and reason to blame Germany for your selfmade crisis. Start to pay your taxes! And do you know something: The EU has a no bailout clause, read more here: http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/international-politics/66698-eu-bailout-programm-esm-unlawful.html And do you know something else, breaking news: Our president refuses to sign the ESM, cause there are so many lawsuits against it. Well, you start to prove that I was wrong with my assumption concerning your level.
Yes, it will really help Greece to stay for ever paying debts as she becomes a third world country. I am sure they are all thrilled to bits. Must be even more of a thrill noticing what Germany and the UK pay for their loans. Where have you been? Are you unaware that Greece has been considering this and may very well do this in the future and that Spain and Italy may come toppling down in her wake? Now that was not Mutmekep. He has already said who was responsible for that. Also the tax avoidance is the rich just like they avoid tax in the UK, in France and likely in Germany. Blame. Well, maybe it was not all Greece's Governments fault. What were bankers doing lending money when repayment would proved difficult. This never happened when I was young but in the 2000's banks were phoning people up who were managing perfectly well and suggesting 'loans' and causing them to go into debt...oh! and of course, I forgot we will all still be paying them for the next 40 years for their gains and destruction of the global banking system. Silly me. ...and did the Greek people, you know the working people who pay their taxes, the old who have worked all their lives and now need to live on half of a state pension, the parents of the children who may not see such a good education, they were not responsible for it, but did they have an opportunity to get into negotiations to work out a way which they could manage? No of course not. It was those very bankers who threw the money at Greece in the beginning, and began this destruction of Western society by their ill got greed and gain who decide how much misery the people of Greece should feel. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/02/bankers-decide-pay-mess-europe
So you manage to blame Germany for its good AAA ranking. Germany is also making more debts yer by year. And even more now, where we do have to pay for others. So the Greek humanity is the reason why they do not refuse to take Evil Germany´s money? Do you know that the Italian people have more money than the Germans? They easily could bailout their country. And do you know that Germany made bigger net contributions to the EU between 1976 and 2008 than all other EU member states together? For if you can read German, here is why we Germans will face at least the same the Greeks do know, sooner or later: http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/s...wahrheit-ueber-den-euro-crash_aid_769470.html Yes, there are banksters. But this is not a reason to clear the Greek government of responsibility. They purchased their reelection by funding a supersized bureaucracy.
No dear, that is purely your imagination. I simply noted that you were taunting mutmekep with Germany's low interest rate while they are stuck in a situation no matter what they pay they will end up owing more. I even included that my own country the UK are also receiving low loans so as not to isolate Germany - the UK's are historically low. I simply was being sarcastic at your taunt or indeed the situation would thrill the Greeks as you seemed to believe while the reality is Greece is suffering from historic levels of suicides. I think you suffer paranoid delusions. I did not say anything in any way which could be interpreted to this. I never once even thought of an 'evil Germany' never mind talking of one or suggesting one. well I was not discussing Germany apart from her not being strong enough to deal with the bankers. You have not dealt with what I did discuss.
What other debts? after the haircut the part that was not cut is about our debt to ECB (which as of course you know it is a consortium of eurozone's "national" banks) , essentially we owe money to France, Germany , Austria and the rest . Don't look at me i voted for the party that is against taking the money eh and the SIEMENS involvement disqualifies your "selfmade crisis" comment. I am level 1 About the whole "pay taxes" thing, everyone that receives a check either in public or private sector has taxes deducted from that check . For example if my wage is 1000 and tax at 20% i get paid 800 so there is NO WAY of tax evading for wage slaves.
I had no bad intention. The Troika offers money to Greece, while Greece hardly gets money on the free market. The Troika wants that Greece makes reforms, otherwise it would have to bailout Greece eternal. So what was you point then? And the Evil Germany was directed to the Germany flags burning and Merkel in Nazi uniform portraying Greeks. And I was just showing you that we are all in the same boat.
The haircut was about 100 billion Euro. You have still enough to pay and you get almost no money but from the Troika. Oh, there was one single German company that ruined Greece. Siemens has nothing to do with your situation. Greece is on the rocks, with or without Siemens. And which party is that? That one that goes into the government and faithfully takes the money? World of Warcraft? Well, how big is the estimated tax evasion in Greece?
That is irrelevant to anything I was talking about. The point is whether the austerity will get the Greeks out of the situation they are in or just lead to never ending reduction in standard of living and ever increasing loans like many African states have suffered. There seems to be no reason to suggest that austerity is improving Greece's economic situation. Five years and things are still getting worse. so a cartoon. Where is your sense of humour? Everyone has to learn to put up with this. There you go again. Like I said you seem to suffer from paranoid delusions. I have still to this minute neither said nor inferred that I believe Germany is evil. I have already made clear what I said but you just came back like a one trick pony. I am not Greek and not responsible for their press. I think you need to tone things down and just argue points rather than trying to stir up extremes. Then possibly some talk will be possible. It certainly is a problem which effects everyone which is why it is better to deal with the issues rather than 'evil Germany' or 'evil Greece' hatred theories distracting form the issues.
I think we have nothing to pay to the loansharks , the original capital is paid several times already. Seriously we don't want anyone's money , i bet the Spanish will feel the same about ECB "saving their banks" . No it wasn't one and single but we did paid ten fold the original price for Siemens 's (*)(*)(*)(*)... not to mention submarines ! The deficits of the last 30 years amount around 40 billion give it a thought how the debt is 400b . I am communist party voter if you look at the right of each post there is short user's profile + level, it clearly states i am level 1 You can not estimate , tax evasion goes very deep and it is part of our culture , if for example you go and eat in a restaurant chances are that the manager will charge you with the VAT without giving you a validated receipt , i bought a new tent from my balcony and the guy asked me if i could take a receipt from a tavern , my mother had an operation with overall cost 9000 and the doctor sent a receipt for 4000. Greeks until recently were Ottoman citizens and many of them thought that they had nothing to gain for cooperating with the state so in general every time they do business with it (most) are trying to pay as little as possible. If you are interested and take a look on the first three censuses after independence you will notice a dramatic decline in population , this was not because the population was actually decreased but because new taxes drove people into banditry en masse .
I am not for senseless austerity. I am for reforms, which can improve the situation. If they will do nothing, would that improve anything? To shrink the Greek bureaucracy without losing jobs could be a long term solution. I had this idea, healthy for the entire Europe: Big European companies would have to move their factories from China back to their countries. They could detour over Greece to give it some time. In the meantime, the Greece public sector should be untounched. And as long as Greece will have a benefit from jobs and tax from the factories, it could make the reforms. I never said, that you have to do anything with why Germany should be evil. Why do you unearth this term again?
You, and other countrres, get benefits from Europe all the time. This is not about loans, please read this: http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/int...6983-what-germany-really-pays-eu-members.html And - on the other hand - it is not even about if Greece pays its debt to non ECB creditors. It is about the creditworthiness which is also linked to the payment behavior. Greek needs to get better rankings. High quality made in Germany, including military equipment, has its price. Buy our brand new stuff or purchase 30 years old M1A1 which have high upkeeps. Your choice. But if I would be in charge, I would not sell our new military stuff to anyone but really close allies. Understandable. But note that in Europe the terms "communist" and "socialist" are mostly assumed names for "just another pseudo social democratic party without efforts to change anything". This is not good. Do you personally want to change that mentality?
Excuse me. What I was answering that time but it is the second or third time you have brought the term 'evil Germany' up. Please, know what you are saying. Tax evasion is certainly something we all need to tighten up on. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...ntists-face-HMRC-probe.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
I understand where this is going , well yes i do want banks to fail in a global scale and get obsolete their dictatorship must end , banks are based on the principle of trust and people must stop trusting them. I don't want to have any relation with unions European or not . I will post the old joke to make you understand how things work: God wanted to make a bridge so he called saint Peter and ask him to take offers from engineers , Peter first went to German and he was told that the bridge will cost €1m, then he went to an Italian and the offer was €2m , finally he went to a Greek , the Greek told him the price is €11m when Peter asked why it was so expensive the Greek replied "€5m for you €5m for me and €1m to the German in order to make the bridge". This is how business are made here , you know the roof of the Olympic stadium had an estimated cost of €3m , it actually cost us €300m ... So it isn't about Siemens only bribing to get the job , it isn't about your Chancellor forcing us to buy submarines ( Sarkozy made us buy long range missiles !) in order to bail us out but all the money that fallen (and they still do , even during the seasonal government they were signing such business deals) in between . Greek communist part (KKE) is the last truly Stalinist party in Europe , out of EU / NATO & refuse to pay a penny back this is what i am voting for not social democracy BS. You know due to some laws those two now famous parties have passed 1. Ministers can not be persecuted you can not even publish an article criticising them 2. Ministers can receive a commission from the deals they close <-- this makes bribery legal If those laws persist i say our mentality is fine , for as long as our state acts like the Ottomans we will act like bandits. Ship owners have ~40 tax immunities , the guy that was installed by ECB into Pri Minister position made over €10m last year and only paid €150 tax , if they don't pay we have the obligation to tax evade . This things are not between nations cause money have no nationality , we are all be cheated . The amount of money i had to pay to my fund (privateer's fund) was doubling every 2 years, a while ago i had to pay €250 over a €700 /month wage before taxes.... this was allegedly for medicare and social security , those guys in the government spent all that money here and there and now they don't pay the drug stores so the drug stores won't give me my drugs , i have to buy the medicine i have already paid. Did i tax evaded? NO Did i get screwed for not tax evading? YES
