So now you are saying that because they are only too little from the whole population in East Jerusalem it can be dissmised? By the way there are only little bit more then 3,500 Palestinians that have Israeli citizenship but there are planty that have perimant residency! To children errest in any way it is tariffaing situation to be in, of course, but if they dont want to get errested so why they continue to hurt Jews in the West Bank? The errests that are in the West Bank have a solid evidences from ISA intelligence, and the vast majority of those who get errested have previous ecussations about actions against Jews, and even there are Arabs (even teenagers) that get errested not for the first time. Would you let in your country criminals run loose? or you will think that they should be locked up? The exemple that I wrote to you came from what you wrote to me, so if my exemple was nonsense so maybe your claim want so right. I axpect your answer about the exemple I wrote to you (thats if you are accepting what you wrote earlier). I take back that claim! I can admit when I wrong No it isnt. You paralleled the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with climex changes, but it cant be paralleled! because climex changes happens from numerous of reasons (as gas pollution and Ozone Hole etc) that can be debated when the Israeli-Palestinians is happening regarding facts which couldnt be debated (as Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel when in reality it is a Blatant disregard frm what happened in 1948. Here you go: Both the US and Israel accepted that Israel was that attacked the US ship but it was a tragic mistake! Source: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/liberty.html I'm not blind to a lot, I can accept when I'm wrong if you would show me that, and yes my opinions are relaying facts! Look I served my country in the West Bank for 3 years (19-22), I know EVERYTHING that have to do with the West Bank and why errests are taking place, HOW night errests taking place and from who the IDF is getting the intelligance for the errests, I sew in my own eyes an Arab that my commander shot him to death after he tried to attack with a weapon my commander myself and 5 other soldiers that been in that place (which he tried to attack), I sew in my own eyes how children were throwing rocks toward Israeli cars, I sew how the Arabs treat each other, I sew how an innocent companion in Arab villages turned out to be a massive and violent demonstration against Israeli cars, I sew how Arabs were throwing rocks toward and spit and mark obscene gestures to Jews, I sew how a whole Arab village coming against us (my force and I) even if we didnt do anything harm, myself and my whole brigade treated Arabs as they should be treated, with the most respect there is. I sew a lot and experianced a lot, things that not you or anybody else that didnt serve the Israeli army in the West Bank ever experianced before and never wanted to experiance. I even tried to explain to you about errests from a soldier point of view and how the IDF works about it and WHY the IDF go errests Arabs, but you didnt want to listen. I'm not a soldier right now, just to make it clear.
At 1.5% of the population it would readily be dismissed as within the margin of error for polling purposes. As for making a point, it merely indicates that the HUGE majority of palestinian arabs are not desirous of israeli citizenship. As to permanent residency, that was a blanket offer to better handle the arab population. What else were the Isrealis going to do with such a large population of arabs in what is according to Israel part of Israel? expell them? Er, many of those "jews in the west bank" are IDF occupation forces. Let's be honest here. How many palestinians get injured by settlers in the west bank? Hatred is not the exclusive domain of the arabs.
Many of those HoAP are hostile not because of religion but because of the fact that they have been a used and abused peoples who have suffered under the oppression and humiliation of occupation for generations now. Support for an organization that is percieved to wage effective resistence to their own percieved manifestation of "evil" (the occupation) is not necessarily being a supporter of holy war, merely of armed resistence. This is a right of all occupied people, regardless of the stupidity of their strategies and the incompetence of their leadership. this goes well beyond Hamas tho. The PLO and various elements of the PA are just as guilty of suppressing criticism and freedom of speech. A palestinian standing in Ramallah that claims the Palestinian martyrs (suicide bombers) are criminals and not shahid will get that palestinian killed rather quickly and his body displayed gruesomely. Supporting Hamas does not qualify as "evil" using its religious connotation. Hamas openly advocates resistence to the Israeli occupation FIRST. That they are Islamist who believe that Jihad is the method of achieving the end times is also not evil. Its merely a perversion of religious dogma, which many religions are equally if not quite as violently guilty of. The concept of Hudna is in fact a teaching of the prophet. A temporary truce to re-arm and strengthen ones side before re-engaging is actually pretty damn smart thing to do if you can sell it to your enemy. In the case of Hamas with Israel, it seems the Israelis weren't stupid enough to buy into it. Its not a justification, it is merely a description of a method used when all other efforts have been exhausted. It is most definitely not a method only reserved for muslims as the bloody history of mankind will readily attest. (COMMENT) Interesting litany of their crimes. Although I am unaware of piracy and hijacking in the Hamas repetoire nor of any Hamas assassinations of Israeli political figures. I would be violently agreeing with your blanket statements about support for Hamas if not for two important conditions: 1. Belligerent Military Occupation of Palestinian territories for 47 years 2. A local electoral rejection of FATAH for its incompetence and corruption. I would venture to say that Hamas won't win the next election and the unity government will dissolve once again.
Maybe 1.5% from, the total Arabs in East Jerusalem is not the majority but yes you cant deny the fact that there is Israeli Arabs in the West Bank, even if they only 1.5% that are from East Jerusalem, its like you have Jewish Arabs in the West Bank (aka Yatta village/village Koziaba). The only Jews in the West Bank is the IDF? really? so what is Beit El? Arial? Maale Adumim? an there's more. There were Palestinians that get injored by settlers, thats why they come to Israeli court house to be judged. Of course there is hatred people from both sides of the fance, thats why Israel AND the PA need to quit them down and send them to jail as they both do. Just that you will now a Palestinian from the West Bank got errested today at Tapuach Junction. which its a main junction in the West Bank, with an explosive device underneath his coat.
Jonsa, et al, We are not that far apart, but for two major perspectives. (COMMENT) I agree that the conflict is not religious based in most cases. Religion is merely used as a rallying tool and a common language for recruitment. But I don't think it is a hinge-pin on which the conflict turns. However, I do take a dim view of the HoAP perspective that they have been "used and abused peoples who have suffered under the oppression and humiliation of occupation for generations now." The Arab-Jewish Conflict has been ongoing since (as HAMAS says) a time before Sheik Izz ad-din Qassam and the Palestinian Black Hand (nearly a century) --- and Haj Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem of the Western Wall Uprising, --- and the emergence of the revolutions first major financial benefactor --- Prince Rashed Al-Khuzai who sent necessary funds for the Palestinian rebels and the revolution directly. It was a revolution billed as a struggle over freedom and the right of self-determination; but behind it all was the fight over power, leadership, glory and riches by unscrupulous Arabs that wanted one more kingdom. The Arab Palestinian was neither oppressed or humiliated; but they were a threat. In the decades immediately prior to the 1967 Occupation, Gaza was under the control of the Egyptians and the West Bank was sovereign territory by annexation of Jordan. Had it not been for the 1967 and 1973 Wars, they would be something other than the Arab State of Palestine today. The Arab Palestinian had been, for tens of years, been the proxy insurgents of elements (the invisible hand) of the Arab League. And while the Arab League, as a whole, is not actively hostile, they need not be with the belligerent HoAP as a place holder. Had the Arab Palestinian participated in the peace processes --- instead of assuming a hostile role, the Middle East would be today, a very different place. (COMMENT) Yes, well this has to do with the belief that the Jihadist and Fedayeen have some special dispensation to perform terrorist activity. Of course we all know that nothing could be further from the truth. HAMAS only uses the Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States when it sounds in their favor. But they hold by policy the conviction that "[t]here is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad." It is important to remember that the foreign intervention of Arab Forces in the 1948/49 War of Independence was based on the concept that the partition of Palestine in 1947, and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal. The Israel-Palestinian Conflict of today follows a very similar logic path. And the Occupation is in direct response to that logic path - with the overarching objective to protect the territorial sovereignty of Israel. (COMMENT) I will, for the time being, grant that "using its religious connotation," the support of HAMAS may be argued. However, as HAMAS supports JIHAD as the solution to the Question of Palestine, it is "evil" (simplest term). And people who support JIHAD are a threat to peace and security. The use of a temporary "truce" or "armistice" for the purpose of reconstituting forces in order to conduct future Jihadist activities is "bad faith" (evil); and should not be allowed either in the political sense or the military view. HAMAS has the least justification of an Arab Palestinian, to further conflict, as it is not even occupied, and has not been occupied for nearly a decade. While Gaza is contained and quarantined, there are not IDF in Gaza. (COMMENT) Repeating wrongs, is not a justification. And all other peaceful means have not been exhausted. (COMMENT - CORRECTION - APOLOGY) As far as the piracy issue goes, you are correct, I misspoke. The MS Achille Lauro, of the Flotta Lauro Lines, was pirated in October '85 by four members of the Palestine Liberation Front (PLF). I apologize and stand corrected. As far as assassination as an issue, you are correct, I misspoke. That was related to Black September, and the PLO's attempt to take over Jordan in 1970. I apologize and stand corrected. NOTE: Sometimes I tend to clump all HoAP together as a combined threat and in terms of demonstrated activities; when in this case and context, it was entirely inappropriate. (COMMENT) The Israeli application of Occupation Law continues to face difficult challenges, as recent times have shown. In fact, some experts have repeatedly contested the applicability of Occupation Law on the issue of effective foreign control over the territory, which is clearly a problem with the Gaza Strip where Israel unilaterally withdrew its forces in favor of containment and quarantine. For 47 years, Israel's administration of the West Bank and Gaza Strip under a modified version of Occupation Law, has maintained a relatively peaceful aspect to the region in terms of security. It has contained, to a degree, the growing menace of the insurgency. The degree and temperance of the Occupation has a reactive quality to it that is directly related to the compliance of the indigenous population. If the indigenous population adversely responds, the occupation responds in kind. Yes, we agree, it is a Belligerent Military Occupation of Palestinian territories; but necessary based on the threat the HoAP pose. The duration of the Occupation has more to do with the irreconcilable differences between the two parties. And it is thees irreconcilable differences that cause the Peace Talks to fail at every attempt; and requires "Binding Arbitration" as a solution. But since neither side is ready for a "good faith" effort, the duration will only get longer. Israel is what it is. It does not matter to Israel if Fatah assumes the leadership role or not. The disappointment in the popular selection of HAMAS is in its basic attitude towards Israel and its fundamental untrustworthiness. After the withdrawal of forces, the general population selected an administration that only further aggravated the relationship between the HoAP and Israel; conditions did not improve. The internal domestic issue of Fatah being incompetent and corrupt, is merely a demonstration that the People of the Arab State of Palestine were not capable of rendering a reasonably functional government. This is a problem that only the Palestinians can solve. (COMMENT) Maybe! We simply do not know. But, I would suspect that any attempt to dislodge HAMAS from power will be met with force; a confrontation between the opposing military wings. Most Respectfully, R
Israelis and their military have to be on constant alert day and night. IDF Manhunt After Terror Cell at Large in Samaria Suspects pursued over foiled suicide bombing this morning, may possess more bombs; video of attempted bombing released. By Ari Yashar First Publish: 5/30/2014, 2:01 PM The IDF on Friday afternoon began a manhunt in Samaria. Their target: the terror cell that is believed to have been behind the foiled suicide bombing at Tapuach Junction near Ariel which took place Friday morning. The assumption at this stage is that the suicide terrorist who was captured wearing a bomb belt was brought to Tapuach Junction by three other Arab terrorists, reports Walla!. The three terrorists reportedly gave the apprehended terrorist clear instructions as to how to detonate the bomb belt. IDF forces suspect that the three terrorists may have more bomb belts or other weapons, lending a true urgency to the pursuit. The information likely was provided by the captured terrorist who was brought in for investigation, after refusing IDF orders to remove his unseasonably large coat at Tapuach Junction and then lying on the ground. Soldiers and police were able to arrest the would-be bomber before he caused any damage, and a bomb disposal squad was called to the area to dismantle the explosives. Watch: IDF detain would-be suicide bomber [video=youtube;7vDZpftj69Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vDZpftj69Q[/video] A senior military official said that the terrorist who was apprehended had no past history of connections to terrorism. The source added that the terrorist said in investigation that he was supposed to detonate the explosive himself, as opposed to some other terrorist detonating it remotely. "This is a serious rise in intensity in the attempt of the Palestinians to harm innocent civilians," said Gershon Messika, head of the Samaria Regional Council. "It's clear the Palestinians aren't for peace. The time has come for the Israeli government to recognize that, and rebuke whoever dares say that Israel is to blame for the peace talk failure." The foiled suicide bombing was not the first attempted terrorist attack at Tapuach Junction in the past months - in mid-April police officers foiled another stabbing attack. Police noticed an Arab man acting in a suspicious manner. Upon investigation, the officers found a knife in his pocket. An initial investigation revealed that the man intended to stab an IDF soldier at the junction. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/181224
okay then. Obviously not in the settlements, but then those considered part of Israel by the neo-zionists AND the Israeli government, aren't they? Oh? the Palestinians arrest settlers who do harm to palestinians? Or do you mean Palestinians arresting members of the PLO or just the PA arresting Hamas members? And the fact that a palestinian terrorist was stopped at Tapuach Junction merely supports my contention that the lions share of IDF checkpoints are there to protect settlers since KfarTapuach actuall sits astride the junction. Its sure as hell not there to protect palestinians from settlers.
Cause and effect is at play here. No belligerent military occupation, no illegal settlements, no checkpoints, no need for constant and heavy security. Now it can be seriously debated as to why this occupation has persisted for so long, but there is no debate as to why the Israelis must be vigilant at all times.
Jonsa, et al, Yes, the impact of a "cause and effect" is often articulated by the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP). But not very well. (COMMENT) Under most expert guidance, and in fact, "belligerent occupation is regarded as a species of international armed conflict and treated as such by the relevant instruments of IHL, particularly the Hague Regulations of 1907 and the Geneva Conventions of 1949." In the case of the West Bank, it is a non-consensual - belligerent occupation: absence of consent from the Palestinians whose territory is subject to the foreign force control. The issue of settlements has two faces, Article 49 of the Geneva Convention as the prohibition, and the Oslo Accords, which places it under negotiation and outline Areas A, B, and C. The issue of illegal settlements is not a cause. The conflict started before there were settlements in the Occupied Territories. Checkpoints are required as a matter of security containment due to the belligerent nature of the HoAP (both Jihadist and Fedayeen) that support the use of terrorist action. Most Respectfully, R
Hamas is a filthy terrorist organization that openly has supported Osama Bin Laden. I have already posted the videos. Their charter also states their intent to destroy the jewish people and they have made claims that they want to take over the world and force islam on the world.
I do not claim that the occupation is illegal. I do believe on the other hand that the settlements are illegal. Oslo broke down with the usual fingerpointing. The promised negotiations never really took place and in the intervening time, Israel's facts on the ground approach rapidly expanded the illegal settlements. Opportunistic land grab might be an impolite way of describing it. As for the checkpoints, I am fully aware of their security objectives. My point was quite simple, there would be no need for checkpoints at all within the West Bank (border crossing being entirely different) if there weren't settlements to protect. Terror is the tactic of many types from resistent fighters to insurgents to anarchic terrorists to many national military organizations. OTOH, There can be no argument that the citizenry under belligerent military occupation have a right to resist that occupation, and asymetrical tactics are the only avenue available for such resistence. Would you characterize the Maquis as terrorists? Please don't get me wrong. I think the tactics of armed resistence by the Palestinians is stupid and effective only in heaping more misery and oppression upon their people. I think for the most part their political strategies are also ineffective, since they have painted themselves into a corner having intractible pre-conditions that Israel would be truly dumb to accept in the absence of trust and confidence in the future stability of a sovereign palestinian nation.
The settlements considered to be on Israeli land because Oslo Accords that was signed by Arafat and Israel. The settlements are in area C- the place that according to Oslo Accords is under Israeli civil and military rule. The PA arresting Hamas members. The PA cant arrest settlers because they are in area C which the PA dont have control in it. the PA arresting terrorists in area A and B. So why couple of weeks ago or so settlers from the West Bank got arrested after they hurt Palestinians?
Yes, they are the settlements, whose final disposition was supposedly to be dealt with in the negotiations to resolution that were agreed to in the Accords. That does not mean in any way that the settlements are part of Israel. Really? the PA is arresting terrorists? How many are in jail? How many have been brought to trail? Yes they got arrested and IIRC RELEASED almost immediately. Had they been palestinians they would have been in solitary confinement awaiting trail for six months or so. Its not quite a level playing field as you wish to portray.
Of course that in the accords the goal was to established an Arab state eventually, but in the same accords it been agreed on that area C will be under full Israeli rule, which means all of the rsettlers need to respect Israeli rules, and if area C is with Israeli rule, it means that Israel can build houses there. Lets see, shell we? Source: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=690677 Source: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/originals/2013/08/hamas-west-bank-israel-security.html# Source: http://electronicintifada.net/conte...st-bank-arrest-campaign-hamas-supporters/3382 Source: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165022#.U4oTKptZqDY There is planty of Israeli Jews that killed and hurt Palestinians that are still in Israeli jail, like Sahar Butbika, a border police that killed an Arab in Hebron is still in jail like 12 other like him that they in jail for long period of time.
Jonsa, et al, Excellent salient points. (COMMENT) I agree, the Oslo Accords were never as successful as the parties to, expected them to be. But, the were not entirely defective and they were never revoked by either party. They just slowly faded away as a means or tool for further progress towards a peaceful and comprehensive settlement. I suspect that the Area "C" Settlements and expansion, will eventually be vacated if, and only if, disposition is made through a means of "binding arbitration" wherein neither party can back-out of the arrangement, and where a third party, dispassionately, can control the agenda and temperament of the arbitration effort. I think that Israel knows that realistically, this territory will never be sovereign Israeli territory, and that any move to annex that territory will be more detrimental to Israel than the Palestinians. Such a move would spell the beginning of the end for the Jewish National Home. (COMMENT) This, seemly minor issue, is actually a sub-element of a much more complex issue; that of "law enforcement" under a non-consensual and belligerent occupation. (COMMENT) The use of terrorist tactics against any element of the civilian population (Israeli or Palestinian) is a violation of both International Humanitarian Law (IHL), and International Criminal Law (ICL). Under IHL, activities that are "solely intended to harm the Occupying Power" or in cases where the person is guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power or of intentional offences which have caused the death of one or more persons," are handled covered by Article 68, Forth Geneva Convention 1949. When a belligerent and hostile government under occupation (the Arab State of Palestine as an example), openly supports and conducts "widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack" are covered under Part 2 - Article 7 - Rome Statutes - International Criminal Court. There is no special dispensation for the population under Occupation to use armed struggle directed at the Occupation Power, either civil or military. (COMMENT) The "right to resist" and the use of "armed struggle and terrorism" are NOT synonymous. The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) Movement is a peaceful resistance activity and entirely legal; where as the Izz al-Din al-Qassem Brigades (IQB)(terrorist wing of Hamas) and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) are on the US and EU Terrorist List. There is no law that permits "Jihad" (as HAMAS promotes it) or "armed struggle" (as the PLO promotes it) anywhere in the IHL or ICL. In fact, the entire body of law points in the other direction. With the exception of the Preamble of the Arab Convention for the Suppression of Terrorism of the Arab League, its international counterpart - the Global Counter-Terrorism Strategy and the associated Plan of Action (A/RES/60/288), prohibits the organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens. There are two concepts embedded in the general laws under which the international community holds as valid. Nothing can justify terrorism ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts. Every State shall settle its international disputes with other States by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered. (COMMENT) We agree. (SIDEBAR) You specifically asked about the organization known as the "Maquis," a rural nickname for the Free French Resistance (FFR); not including the post-Invasion French Forces of the Interior (FFI). The FFR conducted hostile asymmetric operations against the non-consensual belligerent occupation by German Forces. Again, I encourage you to read Article 68 of the Geneva Convention 1949 (GCIV): Clearly, you can see that any operation "intended to harm the Occupying Power" is illegal; particularly those "caused the death of one or more persons" or involve "espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power." It should also be noted that: Resistance Movements against Occupation always sound patriotic and special, particularly under the eyes of those that are under Occupation Law. But the fact of the matter is, that hostile operations against the Occupation Force are "Illegal;" no matter the cause. There is no question that the Occupation Force has an "obligation to restore and ensure as far as possible public order and safety while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country." The use of force to maintain the peace, and the security measures applied are a matter for case-by-case evaluation. But make NO mistake, it is NOT TRUE that there is "no argument that the citizenry under belligerent military occupation have a right to resist that occupation" using terrorism or armed struggle. The legal resistance is a matter of the type of resistance. Most Respectfully, R
No that is not the case. Read Oslo again. Area C REMAINED under Israeli rule because no Israeli politician in their right mind would agree to palestinian control of the ISRAELI setttlements. In fact it was completely understood that in the final negotiation there would be a land swap to compensate for SOME of the settlements that would remain upon final peace agreement. I can't believe you are using actions taken by Fatah and Hamas in their civil war as proof that Palestinians are arresting "terrrorists". that's funny. If it takes such extreme actions by BORDER GUARDS (a position of authority granted by the state) to be convicted and sentence to 8 years (trivial when it comes to the heinouness of the crimes) no wonder you quote 12 as plenty.
I know, and still area C is under Israeli rule, like area a and B are under Palastinian civil rule and they can build whatever they like there, so why Israel cant? The articles are not from 2007!!!- when Fatah and Hamas been in civil war. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=690677 - this article is from April 16th, 2014, and talks there about that 357 Hamas/Islamic Jihad mambers were been arrested by Fatah in the first quarter of 2014! http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/o...security.html# - this article is from August 23rd, 2013, and explains you there that since the start of 2013 72 Hamas mambers were in Jail and 440 Hamas soppurters were been arrested by the PA. http://electronicintifada.net/conten...upporters/3382 - this article is from August 11th, 2008 (the fights between Hamas and Fatah was in 2007!), and it shows you there that the PA arrested and detained several Hamas mambers in August 2008! http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...2#.U4oTKptZqDY - this article is frm August 2nd, 2013, and it talks about that the PA arrested 25 Hamas mambers in the past 48 hours. there is more, after the Israeli approval ro realesed terrorists from the Israeli jail [which there they can get a PHD ok (aka Barghouti)] the Israeli families that their love ones are also in jail protested that the if Israel realese terrorists so why sould they realese their love ones too. And in one article that described this protest, were listed the 12 people that their families came to protest. BORDER GUARDS in Israel are part of the ARMY, people join the army to be border guards (some not all).
Just can't see the Israeli government submitting to third party arbitration. (COMMENT) I am aware that there is no special dispensation. that is not the point. My point is simple and universal in application. The occupied populace has every right to resist belligerent military occupation by whatever means are at their disposal. Naturally an unconditional surrender would mitigate that right, but in the absence of same, the occupier does not get a "free ride". Indeed, it is also recognized that the occupier has the right to detain, imprison and even execute those found to have committed a laundry list of "crimes" against their personnel. Of course that doesn't include reprisals. So according to international law, the maquis were terrorists, as were all partisan groups fighting the axis. Indeed, according to international law, all resistence to occupation is illegal and punishable. This is yet another example of how international law is sometimes inexplicably incapable from recognizing reality. I violently agree with international concensus in condemning non-state actors who engage in international terrorism. I completely disagree that nothing justifies terrorism as a tactic of a liberation movement. And while its a lovely sentiment about nations settling their differences peacefully, we have still another example of how removed from reality international law can be. It is ludicrous to establish high and mighty laws that not a single nation would adhere to should the occasion of armed conflict arise. Notwithstanding, I can only express my own opinion on this but I can assure you that if my nation was invaded and belligerenlty occupied, I would do everything and anything in my power to eject said invaders, regardless of the inane but perhaps well meaning edicts of the international community. So by the definitions of international law, ALL armed resistence to belligerent military occupation is illegal. All those hero's of the resistence throughout europe and asia and africa were merely murderers and terrorists and were justly executed when captured. Seems I was wrong about the "legal right" according to the international community. Too bad the internatinal community is so robustly hypocritical while attempting to re-define the millenial old realities of human conflict. How we can be so arrogant to believe that there can be "laws of war" is truly beyond me. to me there truly is only one law of war and that is to survive while killing the other guys until they can't or wont fight any longer.
BECAUSE IT IS NOT PART OF ISRAEL. Humble apologies. I jumped to an incorrect conclusion by not reading all the links. I still contend that the PA isn't necessarily arresting "terrorists", they are making political arrests as at least one of the articles evinced. I did not know and am grateful for the information that the PA has actually arrested some Hamas members with explosives et.al. I should hope that the incarcerated can continue their education - rehabilitation is an objective isn't it? As to Israeli families lamenting that fact that Israeli criminals are not released, that is completely irrelevant. So you are admitting that despite your protestations of excellent behaviour in the west bank by IDF forces that perhaps some of them are right bastards, full of hate and abuse their power? Good we are getting somewhere.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, just looking in their Charter will show that! (by qouting Hitler!) Of course that rehabilitation is important! but let us not forget that the Arabs killed numorous of Jews, and there is Arabs in Israeli jail that it is not their first time. If Barghouti, a man that was the head of the Tanzim organization that responsible for the death of numorous of Jews. In the US they would executed him and not rehabilitate him. Of course just told you why I mentioned only 12 people. I never said that Israeli soldiers are all saints! There is (*)(*)(*)(*) heads soldiers that do actions against the law and military law, and yes they should be punished! BUT of course not all of the Israeli soldiers are like that! the ones who violeted military laws are some not the majority! the majority of Israeli soldiers are fulfilling the military law in the West Bank, and treat the Arabs respectfully!
Jonsa, et al, We agree on some points (COMMENT) I agree that such a proposal would be a hard sell for the Israelis. But given the fact that a multi-national intervention is extreme, and the irreconcilable differences that exist between the two belligerents, I don't see any other choice; except the status quo. (COMMENT) Active Hostile Resistance (AHR) to occupation is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it can be (and often is) considered the patriotic duty of the "population under occupation" (PUO) to resist an externally imposed "occupation force" (OcF). The degree and the extent of the AHR is, theoretically, dependent on the belief that the AHR will prevail against the OcF, causing it to retract and withdraw. On the other hand, the AHR is illegal, and being illegal, it is the duty of the OcF to maintain and establish law and order, and incumbent upon the OcF to exercise such force as may be necessary to establish that objective; as part of the legal framework governing the use of force in occupied territory. After all, embedded within the definition of an occupation is the concept of establishing "effective control over a foreign territory." And I agree, that in reality, the two concepts --- being seen or placed close together --- with contrasting effect --- are extremely hard to reconcile. But none the less, that is the scope and nature of an occupation; remembering that AHR is a continuation of hostilities (not peace) by other means, usually at a reduced intensity. (COMMENT) Understood. Liberty comes with a price. Your nations freedom is not free; as the Libyans know, as the Egyptians know, as the Palestinians know and as the Syrians are learning. them. The Israelis also know the price of their freedom and the danger that lurk about seeking to destroy them. And they too hold your conviction - they "would do everything and anything in my power to eject said invaders" and Hostile Arab Palestinians that threaten their way of life. Having said that, each set of conditions in an occupation has to be evaluated on its merits. Not all occupations require AHR to terminate; that being merely one course of action. And not all AHR Movements are successful. (COMMENT) Yes, oddly enough, under International Humanitarian Law (specifically the point-of-origin = the Hague Conventions), you are correct: "all (hostile) resistance to occupation ( intended to harm the Occupying Power) is illegal and punishable." (The Article 68 Rule! GCIV Among others. The Rule of Law.) (COMMENT) History is written by the winners. When the party to which an AHR wins, then they are defined as Hero's of the State. When the party to which an AHR loses, then they are defined as insurgents, traitors, rebels, terrorists, and Enemy's of the State. The two edges of the sword. Seems I was wrong about the "legal right" according to the international community. Too bad the internatinal community is so robustly hypocritical while attempting to re-define the millenial old realities of human conflict. (COMMENT) The "Laws of War" are written for conventional - straight-up battle scenarios. When dealing with wars of liberation, asymmetric conflicts, insurgencies, revolutions and civil wars (or combinations thereof), the waters becomes murky. Yes, in general, the cleanest objective of any armed conflict is to break the opposing force's (OPFOR's) will and the spirit of the continue the fight; thus, avoiding the dynamics of a "belligerent occupation." But with the advent of more complicated conflicts of low intensities, and the introduction of irregular forces as the principle OPFOR, even the parental overwatch for humanity [International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and International Court of Justice (ICJ)] finds it difficult to maneuver within the laws written by imperfect men that cover an imperfect world. Most Respectfully, R
Hamas is also a humanitarian organization and a political organization, just looking at their charter will show that as well. Not all members of hamas are terrorists despite what many would like to believe. Not sure what your point is here. Yes rehabilitation is an important compenent in incarceration. Yes, barghouti killed a lot of jews. Israel doesn't have a death penalty, so what is your point about the US? that the US has? You claimed that you and your entire brigade were good guys that never abused their power. I don't for a moment think that all IDF members are criminals nor abusers of their position and power. HOWEVER, that does not mean that those kind of soldiers don't exist. As you say, and I violently agree such criminals should be prosecuted and punished. But I would venture to say that only a very small % of those criminals are. Only the most blatant of crimes are not. Lots gets swept under the rug - you were in the military, so you know that protecting the unit is more important that protecting the enemy.
Status quo seems to be a more desirable option for the Israelis. I can't think of many belligerent military occupations that have not at some point been propagated or mitigated by an unconditional surrender or armistice. That appears to be missing from this conflict, even the cease fire from 67 was merely an agreement to cease military operations and had nothing to say about captured territory. the international community thru the UNGA had something to say about it, but the belligerents both basically told them to shove it at the time. I agree. Are you aware of any unilateral withdrawal from belliegerent military occupation without an iron clad peace agreement? I have no doubt that the Palestinian strategy of resistence is a consistent loser. Unfortunately the propaganda is so skewed as to have most of them believe it is the only avenue to get any concessions from Israel, despite the empircal evidence of Oslo and what sincere give and take negotations can accomplish. And therein lies a tell tale description of almost all human conflict with its inherent and obvious hypocrisy included. With reference to your "two edged sword" comment above, this is why I find "rules of war" to be so presumptive. We take the most destructive activity of humans where the objective is clearly to kill the opposition and break his toys and then in a paroxysm humanitarianism we decide there has to be rules for killing and massive destruction. What unmitigated hubris, arrogance and conceit. War is about winning as you said. Its not about losing but playing by somebody else's rules.
[video=youtube;gxBRneLJQuU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxBRneLJQuU[/video] I dont think that a humanitarian organization does this kind of things! those actions are also Hamas mambers that you say that they are not terrorists are responsible because they are part of Hamas! Israel does have death panalty, but this punishment is only can be applied on Nazis! (aka Eichmann) My point is that country that have a death panalty and people like Barghouti is been arrested by them, the country will exexuted him without any rehabilitation. Myself and my whole brigade were good that never abused their power- right! I didnt say and i'm glad to hear you dont think that all the IDF mambers are abusing their power! but there is a lot that do think like that! Of course that those kind of soldiers exist! but the IDF is punishing them properly for the things that are against the law! I can tell you, from someone that been part of the IDF 3 years that WHOLE of those who do actions against the law and abusing their power are been punished! and even go to military jail! You know why you never heard about them? because the media (even the Israeli media) doesnt publish!
To put everyone's mind at ease... P.M. Netanyahu has issued a statement here: Netanyahu: Fatah Leader ‘Says Yes to Terrorism’ Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu affirmed: “Today, Abu Mazen [aka Mahmoud Abbas] said yes to terrorism and no to peace. This is the direct continuation of Abu Mazen’s policy of refusing peace. While Israel has carried out courageous and painful steps on behalf of the diplomatic process and continues to be committed to peace, Abu Mazen has refused to extend the negotiations, has rejected the American framework document, continues to incite against Israel, has unilaterally acceded to UN treaties and has now forged a pact with the Hamas terrorist organization. “Abu Mazen has forged a pact with the Hamas organization, which is responsible for the murder of over 1,000 innocent Israelis and the firing of thousands of missiles at Israeli cities. “Abu Mazen has forged a pact with Hamas, an organization which has been declared a terrorist organization in the US, Europe, Egypt and throughout the world, and which completely rejects the international community’s conditions. The international community needs to treat it accordingly. “In recent days, the leaders of the Hamas terrorist organization have reiterated their commitment to the path of terrorism and to the elimination of the State of Israel. “The agreement with Hamas makes Abu Mazen directly responsible for the terrorism emanating from Gaza. “The State of Israel will not conduct diplomatic negotiations with a Palestinian government that relies on Hamas, a terrorist organization that calls for the destruction of Israel.” Written by: Anne Gordon and Atara Beck, United with Israel
