He Should Be In Politics Again.

You're an atheist. Good for you.

 

Your points are well-stated and well received, too! And you're quite right that Jefferson enthusiastically endorsed a "wall of separation" between church, and state: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.” Link: https://www.monticello.org/research...religion,whole American people which declared

The main thrust of my earlier posts in this thread were mainly intended to reinforce the fact that whatever else Jefferson and our nation's other Founding Fathers believed, the First Amendment, as written, 'said what it said', and, conversely, 'didn't say what it didn't say'....

Oh, just one sidebar note: a main reason that facial hair is not permitted in the military is because headgear, especially those with 'gas masks', etc., such as those kinds which may be needed for military personnel in wartime situations (or training) cannot be worn over beards and even some moustaches! You never know when, if, or how you may need to deploy in any wartime situation, so, 'banning the beard' became the norm for most military personnel.

 

What makes you think I'm an atheist?

 

Yes. This fallacy by atheists, er, authoritarians that the separation of church and state is a doctrine which demands that American gov't be devoid of religion is, well, untrue.

 

You lump all, er, at least, the great majority of religious people as authoritarians.

 

That doesn't make me an atheist though. That just makes me a hater of people who like to weaponize their religion.

 

So hate on the people who weaponize their religion. Don't hate on most or all religious people, er, don't try to justify your incorrect interpretation of separation of church and state 'cause you are leery of most religious people.

 

Where did I say I hate religious people at?

 

Where to begin....

What I said, and what I meant is that the Constitution says what it SAYS, and, conversely, that it doesn't say what it DOESN'T say! If you think that's "fascistic" then exactly who is the "fascist" here...?

As far as the denotative meaning of the English word, "establish" is concerned, and assuming you're serious, here it is:
https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages
es·tab·lish
/əˈstabliSH,eˈstabliSH/
verb

1. 1.
   set up (an organization, system, or set of rules) on a firm or permanent basis.
   "the British established a rich trade with Portugal"
   Similar:
   set up
   start
   begin
   get going
   put in place
   initiate
   institute
   form
   found
   create
   bring into being
   inaugurate
   organize
   lay the foundations of
   build
   construct
   install
   plant
2. 2.
   achieve permanent acceptance or recognition for.
   "the principle of the supremacy of national parliaments needs to be firmly established"

The "fascists" you on the Left seem always to be in search of are more like English King Henry VIII, or, even maybe a lot like the Pope(s) of the Roman Catholic Church! THOSE were the kinds of tyrants that our Founding Fathers sought to protect us from, not some assortment of city councilmen who put up a Christmas tree or a Menorah display for Hanukkah during "the Holidays".

I'll stop there because I've learned through dozens of past arguments with Leftists and other 'counter-culture' types that it does no good whatever. Thus, this suggestion, in words you'll understand: If you don't like the fugging Constitution, then change the damned thing! Amend it to your heart's content. It's already been done twenty-seven times! Be a hero -- take away the best weapons that "fascists" use to work against your 'progressive' agenda -- change the Constitution! But don't try to tell the rest of us that we don't know what words mean in the English language....

 

Or those who think this should be a "Christian Nation" or Christain Nationalism.

 

Your reasoning for having the incorrect interpretation of separation of church and state was to fend off religious people who want to weaponize their religions.

 

The first amendment and the separation of church and state states that there shall be no state religion...Period...Again, no establishment of a state religion.

 

There can be no freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

 

Well stated atheist.

 

What?

 

Sorry no atheist here.

 

The word used is establishment, not establish



In the context of the amendment and the written words of the founders we can absolutely see that they meant they intended to build a wall of separation between church and state.

No law can respect the authority of religion

Thanks for your opinion?

So not only are you not an originalist constitutionalist or a textural or one that bases your views on the words of the authors seen through other writings of the era but rather you seem to just about pushing your religious agenda and perverting the English language in the process.

 

Saying the constitution cannot respect the authority of religion is pretty cut and dry.

 

That’s not what it says. It says religion — nothing about a state religion

 

What "religious agenda" am I "pushing"? Do seriously glean from what I've written that I want something like an "established" Church of the United States?! You on the Left and we on the Right get farther and farther apart with the passing of every day.... Hopeless.

 

You are asserting that the separation of church and state doesn’t really exist — most people doing that are doing so to instill their own religious beliefs into the system so that it can be forced upon the unwilling.

Maybe the actual issue is a failure to comprehend both the original intent of the founders as well as the English words written in the clause.

You desire to paint the clause as actually meaning a church set up by the government instead of a desire to prevent religion from perverting civil law is as pathetic as you trying to alter words.

 

If people are wanting this nation to be a "Christian nation," then they are referring to an official religion, either directly or indirectly, and will make policies as such.

 

Absolutely bewildering! Do you know anything about the English 16th-century context that people like Madison and Jefferson must have had at the forefront of their minds when they wrote that 'establishment' clause? They were positively allergic to the idea of any future 'Henry-esque' American tyrant creating his own church and forcing everyone to pay obeisance to it ON PAIN OF DEATH, like Henry VIII had done! But, you don't want to hear it, so, forget about it.

Nobody in the United States is going to force 'church' or 'religion' on you! Not any Republican, not any Democrat, and surely not me -- although I'm neither one of those political kinds of things. Have a lovely day! After all, you don't have to worry about any 'god', so, what could go wrong...?

 

You keep stating your opinion and zero sources.

I have cited the founders, their direct quotes, sources showing they did not want an intermingling of religion and policy and even the dictionary definition.

Such a sad and pathetic ideology

 

I have provided numerous links to references in this thread, but you have yet to tell me what there is anything I've said that suggests I'm "pushing" some "religious agenda". I'm NOT.

As far as the United States of America is concerned, I don't care if people are Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim... actually, they can worship THE GREAT TREE LIZARD for all I care. But, what I have said about two dozen times is that I DO care about rigid, no-bullshit adherence to exactly and obviously what is written in the Constitution of the United States -- no more, and no less! But, if English isn't your 'thing', we can continue in German....

. "Don't believe in the Great Tree Lizard? Then, GO TO HELL!"