I am not impressed with Judaism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Mar 6, 2023.

  1. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    Well, they did eat them.
     
  2. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    All of those facts are well documented in the media and elsewhere. But if you are in Russia or Israel you don't get those facts.
     
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  3. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your snarky one liner and inability to refute even one thing I wrote is noted as well.

    Even though I fully support Israel's right to exist, my first loyalty is to the US and what is in America's best interests.

    The US Government's unconditional support of Israel's Right Wing extremist government's ethnic cleansing, expansionism, and war crimes is detrimental to both US and Israel's best interests.

    Netanyahu has already made clear the true nature of the US - Israel relationship:

    Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” -- Benjamin Netanyahu

    https://quotefancy.com/quote/134247...an-out-of-the-United-States-it-can-dry-up-and


    Since this thread is about Judaism, further discussion about the Israeli - Palestinian conflict would be off-topic.
    Therefore, I would be happy to discuss that or any other topic at an appropriate thread.

    Thanks,
     
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  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That is an accurate description of Islam, too.

    Of course, Islam sees Jesus as a major and highly revered profit - the only profit to have worked miracles through the power of god.

    And, there are some in Islam who want to actually use that old testament law as the method of governance - carrying their dedication to "the law" further than does Judaism.
     
  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I meant it as major to America.

    Our values are judged by what we do, and our support for Israel's actions has been huge from the very start and have continued to be huge. Over the recent decades our support for Israel's actions has come in the form of military hardware and constant powerful political protection, and extend to the use of our political and economic weight directly against the people of Palestine.

    Myanmar and China are horrendous, but these and the many other humanitarian atrocities marked by our inaction raise somewhat different questions.
     
  6. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    If all people followed one system, regardless of the system, the world would be a utopia but getting everyone to do that is the trick.
     
  7. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing wrong with being proud of one's culture.

    People often judge other peoples and cultures based on wrong perceptions. Orthodox Jews are not all the same. Please clarify what you mean by "Orthodox Jews", and how do they wear their religion on their sleeve.

    You're looking at one Christian version of what Christians think of Judaism, and you decide you're not impressed with it. Then you should say that you're not impressed with Christian perceptions of Judaism, because you're not talking about Judaism at all.

    Religious Jews are well aware of the shortcomings of their mythical heroes. You won't hear a Jewish parent, or teacher, say "be like David" to kids, because David betrayed his best friend and angered God. You're more likely to hear "be a doctor" from a Jewish mother. Or "be a rabbi".
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Even the Bible points out that one must be extremely careful with pride. It can be intoxicating and blinds one to realities.
    Yes, a mother of any religion does well by encouraging their kids to be doctors.

    I think there are plenty who are inspired by King David having killed Goliath, conquered Jerusalem, and waged war against all those within a large region - as if that is justification for Israeli policy of today.
     
  9. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Let's start with the obvious: religious systems, in one form or another, are common to all known human societies all over the world, throughout history, Almost everything we hold dear and sacred today is the result of millennia of religious syncretism, on one side, and struggle for religious freedom, on the other side.

    For instance, religious syncretism between early, pagan Christianity and Judaism, combined with the rediscovery and re-evaluation of pagan values during Renaissance, led to the creation of the most advanced civilizations on Earth.

    The time has come when we should free ourselves from religions, true, but we can't deny the role played by religions in the evolution of human societies.
     
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your last paragraph is interesting, but I'm not sure what the actual meaning is.

    I certainly see the importance of knowing our human history. We see that constantly, and knowing our history is even an actual political issue in the US today.

    However, I'm not sure what you mean by "deny the role played by religion".

    What would constitute denying the role of religion?
     
  11. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Pride as arrogance is bad. Pride as confidence is good. Being comfortable with one's identity is good.

    Let's not ruin this thread. I'll just point out that King David didn't kill Goliath, a shepherd named David did. He wasn't king then.
     
  12. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Well, claiming that evolution of human societies owes nothing to religions would constitute denying the role of religion.
     
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  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The line between those two is exceptionally narrow. Pride of any kind can provide the confidence that impedes further thought. In practice there is no bold line.

    David's beginning is certainly an important part of the story.

    Plus, devout Israelis (and maybe others) still see the conquest of that region by King David as justification for action today - his creation of a perpetual birthright. In fact, part of that origin story includes his father disobeying God by refusing to slaughter the inhabitants of the Beersheba valley, and penalties for that.

    That claim of birthright does exist. If you think it comes from other events, then let me know.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK, I would agree. But, it leaves open the question of that being a justification for government actions today.

    Societies can not be built on the notion that ancient religious history may be reborn as incontrovertible modern demand. There are ancient religious histories that cover our planet, and there is essentially zero agreement to be derived from that notion.

    Let's remember that these ancient lines were drawn by military conquest. And, those lines did not last.
     
  15. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Everything is on a spectrum. There are no bold lines anywhere, but we need to define some parameters for what we call "normalcy".

    Jews are not commanded to follow in the footsteps of their forefathers, not even their most revered mythical and historical figures. Even many of God's commands are seen as pertaining to certain events, limited to the period and circumstances of the specific event.

    You should ask an Israeli rabbi what devout Israelis think, then ask another rabbi, and a few others, until you finally understand that there's no way to tell what devout Israelis think. Interpretations of the religious texts vary wildly even among the most devout of the devout.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think every religion has interpretations of how their gods' statements are to be applied. It even changes over time, as we've seen with the advent of women's rights.

    I don't find any source that suggests that Israelis see a secular justification for military conquest of Palestine.

    So in your view, what is the source of the Israeli belief that the entire region in the ME is their birthright, and that achieving that birthright through military force is legitimate?

    I've asked this question before, such as in post #38
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2023
  17. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Government actions should focus on short and long term interests of the nation. For some nations, religion is a national interest. Saudi Arabia, for instance. The status of Mecca as the most sacred Islamic shrine is paramount to the Saudis.

    All Arab states' borders have been drawn by military conquests. I'd ask you if you think Arab states shouldn't exist, but as I already said, I don't want to ruin this thread.
     
  18. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    I can't answer your question, because there's no such thing as "Israeli belief".
     
  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, military conquest has resulted in border changes in the past. It is NOT a legal means of changing borders as stated in the UN charter as signed by Israel and most other states.

    Mecca is not on a border. I don't know what you have in mind with this mention.

    Arab and other states are as they are today, regardless of whether those borders were set by a legitimate process. Palestine has reconciled itself to the permanent existence of Israel, and living in peace with the border that was clearly established.

    As for the US, we believe in the rule of law. We were instrumental in establishing the UN.
     
  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for this post.......

    Although I personally attend a Christian church on Sundays... and another Christian church.... Seventh Day Adventist on Saturdays when their service does not conflict with driving my wife to her job.......... I identify as Jewish and I consider the lectures by Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Alon Anava to be off the scale brilliant........ on essentially all topics.... but I especially love how he covers ever aspect of what happens to the human spirit or soul after we die and leave four dimensional space and time.
     
  21. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I'm not particularly proud of my ancestors on my father's side for starting the slave trade (Dutch) or that the ancestors on my mother's side have warrior dances with monkey skulls strapped to their breast (Sulawesi, Indonesia). Having strict rules like refraining from work on Saturdays to me sounds like a bland life.

    I'm talking about those men in the long black overcoats with the big hats and the curly sideburns. I believe this sub-culture is called the Haredim or Hasidic Jews (correct me if I misspelled anything) and has its origins in Eastern Europe. Their isolationist outlook is like some Anabaptist groups. They may get a sense of security doing that, but I don't look upon them as role models for an ideal life.

    I have nothing to disagree with here except to point out that this emphasizes that there is nothing to be proud of that a small group of Priests living in Babylon thousands of years ago cobbled together an unimpressive narrative that a once obscure sect called Christianity has hijacked to to make it the story for millions around the globe when it was never really MY story. It was a Jewish story. Practicing Jews (religion as opposed to nation) either are happy that people everywhere now look upon the Law of Moses with awe because of a heretical cult doing the dirty work, or are laughing at Christian misunderstandings of the narrative.
     
  22. The Wyrd of Gawd

    The Wyrd of Gawd Well-Known Member

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    How many times did Goliath get killed?
     
  23. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Ahh... so you really do not have any proof for what you say. Thank you.
    "Well documented"??? Where? You can't say apparently... SOOOOOOO LIB!!!
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I was not aware that that was an issue!!

    My understanding is that the David who slew Goliath (once!) grew up to be king.

    There are those that seem to believe that Goliath was dead when David got there! But, that's a minority view as far as I can tell.
     
  25. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    I have actually lived in Israel. I have worked closely with their defense industry over the years.
    Great people that support us a lot. We now use a system called C-RAM ("Counter-Rocket Artillery Mortar") that is a lift from their "IRON DOME" system that they shared with us. The guidance system we now use on our PATRIOT PAC 3 missile system is another lift from the Israeli ARROW missile system that they shared with us. Open up almost any American military tactical radio system and you will find Israeli made components that they produced for us at a reasonable price.

    There is a name for your emotional hate of a great people.
     
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