I am not impressed with Judaism

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Greenleft, Mar 6, 2023.

  1. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    The Dutch didn't start the slave trade. It was flourishing for millennia in other parts of the world.

    Refraining from work on Saturdays was the original version of your nice, fun-filled weekends, bland life notwithstanding. Who knows if weekends would even exist today without this particular strict rule. The rule, however, includes being fruitful and multiply on Saturdays, which is less bland, me thinks.

    Yes, Judaism imposes some very strict rules, but religious Jews have the uncanny habit of finding ways to go around these rules. I couldn't live like that, of course, as I grew up in a completely secular environment, but I'm in awe at their ingenuity and determination to make Judaism work even in the most difficult circumstances.

    Yes, this is a classic mistake: judging ultra-Orthodox Jews by their appearance.

    Jews in the Christian world have been marginalized and pushed into ghettos and isolated neighborhoods, even in special Jewish towns in some places (Pale of Settlement in tzarist Russia) since the 16th century (the Venetian ghetto). The law in most of Europe didn't allow them to wear colorful clothes, only black and white.The very religious tend to be very conservative as well, resistant to change, and that's why ultra-Orthodox Jews live today in isolated neighborhoods, and wear black suits with white shirts.This is how they lived for centuries. The symbols of oppression turned into tradition. Judaism has nothing to do with it, it doesn't mandate either isolationism, or dress codes.

    Sideburns are mandated for males, but their length is up to the individual. Trimming them would not break the Law, but shaving them would, so many, though not all, ultra-Orthodox just let them grow to be on the safe side.

    I don't know about a small group of priests in Babylon, do you have a source?

    Practicing Jews believe that human beings have to behave in a certain way, and respect certain rules, in order to help God maintain the integrity of the material world. There are 613 such rules for Jews (this is the meaning of "chosen people" - chosen to strictly follow all of God's commands), and 7 for non-Jews. It doesn't really matter to Jews what Christians, or others, believe, as long as they follow the 7 laws of Noah.

    Not being "your story" doesn't make that story less worthy, or inferior, or despicable. It's just not your story, the end. Islam and Christianity shouldn't be my story, but I wouldn't dare even think, let alone write on public forums, that their followers are less worthy because they're different.

    Human history, human cultures, human traditions, human religions, human civilizations, are all my story, because I'm human.
     
  2. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    Priests in Babylon? Thousands of years ago? Huh? Sure those weren't Martians?
    God gave the Jews unleavened bread ("manna") but gave the Irish Guinness Stout. Its obvious that the Irish are the true "Chosen People".
     
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  3. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    all the Abrahamic religions had their time and place in the past, but people are moving on

    even of those that still believe in a God, it's more generic, more like this

    http://www.tfd.com/deists

    de·ism (dzm, d-)
    n.
    The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2023
  4. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    When, where, and to whom did Netanyahu make this supposed statement?
     
  5. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Ok, well, I am not American, I've never been to America.

    I don't mean to be dismissive, but this seems to have the same issue as before. The OP and my response were explicitly not about the Israel situation. Those are fine things to talk about, but I struggle to link it to the posts you quoted.

    Ok.
     
  6. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Religions are indeed common throughout history. What makes them impressive if they are in fact common?

    I'd say the religious things we "hold dear and sacred" will split into things that religion added unnecessarily, and things that are indeed important, but the identification and development of those things is not fundamentally religious, religion merely hi-jacked them.

    I feel like you've read something into my post that I haven't been saying. I don't deny that religion has played a role, and while I say that there is some thought that isn't in itself religious, I could be convinced that religion would necessarily latch onto it.
     
  7. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I provided a source with my original Post.

    Here's still another source quoting the same sentiments:
    https://www.inspiringquotes.us/quotes/4BxE_d7fmQpY1


    Netanyahu was meeting with Jonathan Pollard, one of Israel's innumerable spies in the US who steal America top secrets and sell the to China, Russia and anyone willing to pay the price.(1) It was a CIA agent who overheard Netanyahu say:
    Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.


    (1) "ISRAEL WON'T STOP SPYING ON THE US"
    http://www.newsweek.com/2014/05/16/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757.html


    EXCERPT "The Jewish state’s primary target: America’s industrial and technical secrets.

    “No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do,” said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, one of several in recent months given by officials from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the State Department, the FBI and the National Counterintelligence Directorate.

    The intelligence agencies didn’t go into specifics, the former aide said, but cited “industrial espionage—folks coming over here on trade missions or with Israeli companies working in collaboration with American companies, [or] intelligence operatives being run directly by the government, which I assume meant out of the [Israeli] Embassy.” CONTINUED
     
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    True, and good point.

    However, I would suggest that the Jewish State of Israel is an actualization of Judaism. Even parties that claim to be secular (such as Avigdor Lieberman) have strong Zionist roots. Israel's coalition government was formed through the political efforts of Lieberman (who stated that no Arab party would be allowed to be part of a coalition) and Netanyahu, who stated his direction as strongly Zionist and includes strongly religious parties. If it weren't for the strong connection with Judaism, Israel wouldn't be carrying out atrocities all across Palestine.

    America as majority Christian makes mistakes, too, of course. One of those mistakes is our policy of supporting the atrocities being carried out all across Palestine. I would say that is coming from Christianity, too, as there isn't any other justification that sounds remotely legitimate. There was a time when the world had a human reaction to the holocaust, but that was 60 years ago.

    We don't support those who want to form an Islamic state in their homeland.
     
  9. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    The link isn't a source. It's just a repetition of the supposed quote. And the explanation by the unnamed CIA agent is hearsay. It isn't verifiable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2023
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  10. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Judaism to me is convoluted and too fluid. It can twist and turn principles. But it's original values deliver a strong and beneficial foundation for a nation.
     
  11. AARguy

    AARguy Banned

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    I do not form my opinions from blogs, newsmeisters or headlines. At 71, I have enough personal experience to form my opinions from things I have seen and known all by myself. My ancestors were Irish but I am not a "dash-American". I am just... American. So let me share my experience concerning Jews.

    From the age of 1 to 7 I grew up in New Rochelle, New York. Although an old town (home of Thomas Paine ... among others), the northern part of the town was not populated until after the war (THE war... WWII) and mainly by Jews escaping the horrors in Europe. Even as a child, I saw Jews move in en masse taking over things politically and economically. They didn't move to America individually as most previous immigrants had... they moved in to take over. Or so I felt at the time.

    Then my family moved to Scarsdale. There was only one non-Jewish business in town, a shoe repair shop owned by an Italian family. The Jewish community got together and boycotted them... so all businesses in the town would be Jewish. I didn't learn to hate Jews, but I learned to dislike them.

    Them I joined the Army and found that everyone was equal. Your color, your race... made no difference at the rifle range, no difference at the obstacle course, no difference in your motivation, no difference in your achievement. We all had equal shots at success. My Puerto Rican bunk mate in Basic Training had been in the Army before and he helped me a lot.

    Then I went to west Point Prep and found that we all had to rely on each other. Color, race, etc., meant nothing. We HAD TO BE A TEAM. And like the cliche says "There is no "I" in "TEAM".

    After I graduated West Point, as a young Lieutenant, I became the XO and later Commander of a Basic Training Company. It was the greatest job I ever had. To this day (going on 50 years later) my Drill Sergeants stay in touch with me and tell me how great our unit was. I had a General contact me that had been one of my trainees, thanking me for pointing him to West Point and helping him gain admission. I have a wonderful memory of sitting in a mess hall alone one morning in Germany and a Staff Sergeant approaching me. He said, "Excuse me, Sir, but did you Command a Basic Training Company at Fort Leonard Wood back in the 70's?" I told him I did and he sat down. he told me that I had changed his life. He said he was a punk hat had been given the choice of jail or the Army. He told me that he was now a successful NCO with a family and a great career and he owed it to me. I damn near cried.

    But along the way, back in those days at Ft Leonard Wood, I learned about the true spirit of Jews... no... Jewish Americans. I had the honor of standing next to one of my Drill Sergeants, a guy who taught this young Lieutenant a lot about leadership, as he was recognized as DRILL SERGEANT OF THE YEAR.

    I made a mistake judging Jews with bad information as a youngster. But I learned better. In the years that followed I worked with the Israeli Defense Industry on many programs that showed Israel was, and remains our friend.

    Friendship based on real facts is a wonderful thing. Hate... based on incomplete data, propaganda, and irrational emotion... is just plain stupid.
     
  12. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The same quote is repeated by at least 50 different sources / links.

    Why is it so hard to believe Netanyahu would say something that exemplifies the true nature of the US - Israeli "alliance"?

    Here are a few more pearls from your dear leader:

    “Stupid pro-Israel Americans - have you heard these quotes from your hero Netanyahu? See below?”
    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20170819014914AA8hRm2

    “It is very good! It will be good for Israel!” Benjamin Nutandyahoo on the 9/11 attacks


    “Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” — Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, 2002


    “My opinion of Christian Zionists? They’re scum. But don’t tell them that. We need all the useful idiots we can get right now.”— Benyamin "Bibi" Netanyahu


    “America is something that you can easily maneuver and move in the right direction. And even if they say something, so then they say something – so what? Look, I wasn’t afraid to maneuver the Americans, I wasn’t afraid to go against the UN.” Benjamin Netanyahu". CONTINUED
     
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  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's my experience, too, though in my technical career, not the military.

    As a very young kid, we had Jewish neighbors move in across the street. They had records of the performances of musicians who were their relatives, killed in the concentration camps. They would come over as we had a record player. I remember them even though very young, as they were extremely emotional for the obvious reasons.

    Neither of our experiences justifies what Israel is doing in Palestine, nor does it excuse the fact that the USA takes part by ensuring that Israel's continuation of those atrocities goes uninterrupted.
     
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  14. Greenleft

    Greenleft Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't like weekends (I get that I'm in the minority) because it's annoying where I live that some shops close while others remain open. The mall is open, but the local grocery store is closed. Also, thinking of all the work I need to put off until Monday makes Monday look very daunting. Part of my job has me occasionally "reporting in" on Saturdays, so I'm guessing I'd earn the frown of a Rabbi.

    I don't look upon the lives of the religiously pious with any awe at all. A life of sacrifices is a life wasted. If you are naturally without a desire to drink alcohol or caffeine, that's fine. But if you wish you could but your prophet said "No", your needlessly making your life bland. I also could not drop everything I'm doing 5 times every day to do a series of bows and prostrations (Muslims).

    (note: when I write in bold underline, you are free to disregard the following paragraph as it's not relevant to the conversation)

    I know I'm going on a bit of a tangent, but this is an opportunity for me to point this out (since I am talking about lifestyle restrictions): going vegan is a very good lifestyle choice. But it's extremely off putting when you invoke holy books and religion to prompt people to do it. You wouldn't quote the book of Daniel for me to go vegetarian. You'd point to the scientific evidence. This is the mistake Muslims make when they invite non-Muslims to fast. Instead of pointing to the scientific process as evidence, they point to Muhammad and the Qur'an. It does not matter if the religion got it right.

    I cannot point out any scholarly evidence. I can only say that this is the beauty of Wikipedia and Youtube. I also have one book I read. But I would invite you to look up any scholar without an agenda, somebody with an agenda being somebody who STARTS with a conclusion and then goes about proving it to be true in any possible way. To have no agenda is to have a theory and then be open to being proven wrong later.

    With that said, the information I'm getting on the Internet tells me that most of the Old Testament/Tanakh was written after the fall of Jerusalem in 587-586 BCE. According to atheist YouTube personality Aron Ra, the oldest book of the Bible is the book of Job at around 800 BCE and according to Ex-Jehovah's Witness Lloyd Evans, the Book of Deuteronomy was written during the reign of King Josiah when they "found" the Book of the Law (read Kings and Chronicles). The Urantia Book (my favorite spiritual text) states that the Priests in exile in Babylon wanted to craft a narrative of why they lost their kingdom and the story they came up with was that Jews slipped into Idolatry. When in fact according to other sources (forgot them but I saw it on Youtube) the monotheistic religion of Judaism was an evolution from other pagan traditions. There is also a great map on Youtube called "The ancient Middle East every year" that shows the Exodus story to be not true.

    I can provide links later if you desire, but if I remember correctly, you are not here with truth claims of theology so I'd be preaching to the coir as they say.

    And this is part of my objection to Judaism in my OP. This two tiered system where Jews are BORN to be priests while Gentiles are born to observe and listen. It's the same disapproval I have towards the Catholic Church: a spiritual hierarchy. I said this before to a practicing Catholic: I need the policeman to protect me from physical harm. I do not need the priest for the salvation of my soul. You have stated the Jews do not preach to Gentiles. Sure. But their theology would definitely make them believe they are THE role model to Gentiles.

    I'm fairly confident a conversation between 2 Jews could have this gem in it: "The other day a goyim friend of mine had dinner at my home. He's now eating only Kosher!"

    It's not just that the story was told to me, it's how it was presented to me; necessary for me to know for the salvation of my soul. Sure, that's not the fault of the Jew but it's their ancestors who wrote that story. Can you assure me that a Rabbi would tell me to my face (provided of course I seek them out): "Don't worry my Gentile friend, It's just a silly fairy tale"?

    I would understand if I started feeling smug if I were told that my people (southern Netherlands or North Sulawesi) were the center of the Universe.

    And since we are talking about stories, let me go on another tangent. My favorite book of all time is Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa. It's a fictionalized story of the historic figure who lived during 17th century Japan. I'd rather that story be told to me a million times over the Exodus story. It's more profound to me (even though it's not my story) and there is nobody going around telling me that I ought to know the story for the sake of my salvation.
     
  15. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Your Yahoo link says nothing about Netanyahu. And your post seethes of anti Israeli sentiment more than pro truth. All I wanted was verification of the quote attributed to him. But it is not to be found. Instead, you just made more unsubstantiated Netanyahu quotes, and linked me to a decade old article about Israeli spies in America. sheesh
     
  16. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :applause::applause::applause:
     
  17. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You disputed the veracity of the Netanyahu quote:

    “Once we squeeze all we can out of the United States, it can dry up and blow away.” - Benjamin Netanyahu
    https://www.quotemaster.org/q8da87be6957d927735bc145596436a2e

    This is the 3rd link I've provided that supports my assertion and there are 40 - 50 additional links that also cite that quote.

    I fully support Israel's right to exist but to those of us whose first loyalty is to America, we are simply tired of sacrificing American blood and resources for "Greater Israel" aka Zionist regional hegemony.
     
  18. Injeun

    Injeun Well-Known Member

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    Repetition doesn't validate a saying. How am I supposed to know that Netanyahu actually said that. There is no actual source. That makes it hearsay.
     
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  19. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Ever tried reading a history of religious beliefs? I can't explain what makes them impressive to someone who only knows Christianity.

    I'm not sure religion merely hi-jacked values. Religion also creates values.
     
  20. Pisa

    Pisa Well-Known Member

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    Monday looks daunting to most people, I'd say.

    You'd earn the frown of a Rabbi only if you're a Jew and your work doesn't involve saving lives.

    Yes, I totally agree that a life of sacrifices for a non-existent god is a life lost. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about how religious Jews find ways to go around their own religious laws. For instance, they can't press buttons on elevators on Saturdays, but they can use the elevator if it's already working. In some places, like hotels, and I guess apartment buildings in religious neighborhoods as well, elevators work continuously on Saturdays, stopping at every floor. No need to press buttons.

    Some religious people are the happiest when they worship, so I'm not sure their lives are bland. The lives of those around them, less happy about worship but forced to comply, are certainly bland though.

    Well, obviously Judaism didn't start out as a monotheism, this is crystal clear from the Torah.

    Yes, Jewish theology is built around the role of Jews as priests of God. Religious Jews sincerely believe that without them the material world would come to an end, and all humans would be doomed. However, unlike Christians and Muslims, they also believe that all Gentiles can be saved if they follow seven simple rules. That's nice of them.

    Adherents to totalitarian ideologies, be those religious or secular, see themselves as role models, and their ideologies as absolute truth. Religious Jews make no exception.

    No. Religious Jews couldn't care less about non-Jews practicing or not practicing Judaism. They only care what other Jews do, because they believe that all of Israel is responsible for one another before God.

    As surprising as it sounds, yes, some rabbis would tell to your face that not everything in the Torah should be taken literally. Kabbalah scholars go even further, claiming that the Torah was given to Jews in its present form because that's what people back then were able to understand. Judaism is a lot more complicated that just kosher and weird hats.

    Jews told you that you ought to know the story of Exodus for the sake of your salvation? Or Christians?
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the story of Exodus is important as it is the conquest of West Bank as the Israelites slaughtered the people there in order to capture a homeland.

    The conquest of Jericho as aided by God included the killing of every man, woman, child and animal - a message of terror so extreme that other cities chose not to confront the Israelite military as the Israelites chose their land.

    In the context of today, it is quite a message!
     
  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How do you know if any quote is accurate that is not recorded?
     
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  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for posting these valuable truths.
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The thing I do find impressive about Judaism, is that it does not say that non-Jews are damned and destined for punishment.

    The Bible and the Jewish faith makes it clear that non-Jews have a place in God's favor, if they follow the laws of Noah:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

    The burden for Gentiles to gain God's favor is MUCH easier than for non-Jews, in Judaism. Being Jewish, from a religious perspective, is quite an annoying burden. The rules they must follow are intense and somewhat stupid.

    As far as the concept of the "chosen people", all this means is that God chose the Jews to follow and represent his laws, and to possess the Land of Canaan (Israel/Palestine). God favors the Jews over other people....until the Jews even slightly disobey his laws. Once the Jews even slightly disobey his laws, God punishes the Jews terribly. Basically the God of the Torah seems to expect absolute perfection from the Jews, and if they dont provide it, the Jews suffer terribly.

    From that perspective, when it comes to within the context of Judaism, I'd rather be a Gentile. :p
     
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  25. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I guess there's always room for improvement in how broad one's understanding is, but I don't think my understanding is too centred around Christianity. I don't think I've said anything in this thread that has particularly to do with Christianity.

    Sure, those values are part of the first category I mentioned, "things that religion added unnecessarily".
     

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