I refuse to be preached to from the Old Testament

I realize not being a Christian should make this thread irrelevant, BUT Christians are still inviting me to Church, Bible studies, handing out tracts, street preaching, preaching online and going door to door. On top of that, I still have a devout Christian mother. So this is an extension of why Christians are not winning me over.

I mentioned in a previous thread that I was not impressed with Judaism and particularly the Tanakh. Much of the stories in it never happened, it is scientifically inaccurate, it's filled with irrelevant information about Tabernacle and Temple construction, it is morally objectionable with instructions of slave and master relations, and much more which makes me think the deity known as Yahweh (assuming Yahweh exists) is a bad writer. The book (or collection of books if you want to be pedantic), is not needed for the salvation of my soul and it does not influence the way I conduct myself in my day to day affairs.

I said I did not like how the Old Testament was taught to me in church and Sunday school growing up being sold to me as my story when it was never MY story. My story is the history and mythology of the people of North Sulawesi, Indonesia. My story is the history and mythology of the people of the southern Netherlands (province of North Brabant). The stories of Genesis to Malachi are JEWISH stories.

One non-practicing Jew pointed out that just because it's not your own story does not make it unworthy. Fair enough. But I HAVE read the Old Testament twice and I don't like what I have read and I will not read it again.

I personally don't go to church regularly, but when I do to make someone in the family happy on occasion, from now on I will walk out if there is a reading of the Old Testament. If a door to door type or street preacher quotes the Old Testament to me I will say: Don't read that to me.

If they ask Why not? I will answer: because I'm not Jewish.

If you want to sell a religion to me (or relationship with God again if you want to be pedantic), tell me how I am personally the center of the Universe or how MY tribe are God's chosen people. NOT the Jewish tribe. Tell me stories of MY people. Is there an Indonesian or Dutch equivalent of King David or Moses? I'm all ears if there is.

 

Despite what Christians say about the Jews supposedly being chosen as God's people for the coming of the Messiah, it's simply Christian teaching. The Jews were supposedly chosen to be missionaries to the world around them. In that they failed many times. A lot of Christianity is adapted from the Jewish religion by misinterpretation and out of context verses/passages. . Much of Judaism was adapted from earlier beliefs. Subsequent beliefs adapt Christianity. Jesus was simply a Jewish preacher who preached Judaism. Paul adapted some aspects of Judaism and used Greek philosophy in speaking to, and winning, the Greeks.
Religion is adapted from lack of understanding by ancient people.
30.000 year old 'paintings' of Therianthropes on cave walls became Egyptian gods somewhere between their being drawn and before Egpytian tribes came together and their history was formed. Man has a vivid imagination.

 

Perhaps you could take a couple of minutes and read this - https://read.gov/aesop/027.html

If you choose to read the story, ask yourself how much science is in the story. Ask yourself whether the story is a lie because because it involves communication between animals that we all know are unable to communicate. Ask yourself whether or not it's a story about you or not because, surely, you have never seen anything like what is described in the story happen. Ask yourself if there is meaning in the story beyond that which is expressly written. Ask yourself if the story would have greater or lesser meaning if the characters portrayed were human instead of animal.

Can we, as humans, learn from the experiences of others? Can we, for example, learn how to repair a car by watching and assisting someone else repair a car? Assuming that we can learn from others, can we apply what we learned t other functions? For example, can we apply what we learn about working on a car exhaust system to plumbing?

Assuming that you would answer all of the above questions in the affirmative, is it at least possible that what you read in the Old Testament is messages from assorted people that experienced God? Is it possible that the people passing their experiences on did so in ways that they believed would be meaningful to people of diverse experience that might well experience the world differently than they themselves did?

 

I just don't read that Bible. I don't let people preach to me. I don't pay any of it much attention. If any of my family decides that their wedding or funeral needs a church or pastor. I will be a good polite guest. Otherwise, I leave religion alone, and religion leaves me alone.

 

if God never changes, then he is exactly the same in the OT as the NT

 

This India spiritual teacher correctly states he cannot read scripture at all. It has to be truth and scripture is not truth It's allegories.
Some when they are repetitively reading scripture they hope for mysteries to open up.Yahweh for example means I Am the Universal spirit of lights similar with the OM.
Einstein's discovered there has to be a God through science opened the Bible and says it's not there from what I heard.
They're just different directions and studies people go in religion or spirituality.
I just try to apply and search for principles I like the mystics that one should gain control of your mind and not let your thoughts and emotions rule you.
You discover God within which I've had great success.
I can understand that your dislike for religion because it's organized has a know-it-all mentality which is foolish dealing with the infinite being and for what I understand they do collapse in the future mystics return an unorganized way .
I still like the religious people that are successful in their practice but the Pharisees money makers are still there, also corruption exists and all levels you can see it in a people in the government now also.
You just probably moaning and growning (me too) because you're in a chastisement it appears to be exact opposite of a loving God .
This world is run by the prince dominated by what's called evil as we die of death a fraudulent death,and we get jerked around throughout life
But that's what the Bible tells you in Genesis when you ate from the tree of a belief in good and evil.
Not that I think you're interested at all but the mystics are where you would find that you're in a matrix (science too)
a great lie that is a belief of a separation from God this by fraudulent thoughts that run your head.
Just maybe a godly joke is being played on your infinite being.
Go ahead and see if you could stop your thoughts for 5 minutes and you'll see you have no control of the body part called your mind.
But I think you just want to pout ,moan and grown That's all Go back those thoughts .That's called The ego . I've been there.

 

Allegories depend on a common social understanding. Even with Aesop's allegories, one has to reach into commonly known principles to see what the stories communicate. And, they are far from demanding, at that.

We just don't have near that much social understanding for deciphering a lot of what is in the OT.

What's the meaning of Genesis 1 - creation story, Cain and Able, the people of Nod. We even have disagreements on the Eden story.

What's the meaning of Jonah and the whale?

What's the meaning of Sodom and Gomorrah?

What's the meaning of God blessing the drunken sex between Lot and his two daughters immediately following the Sodom and Gomorrah story?

How should one reconcile the nature of god and the story of Job?

How much was written to convey social law and structure vs. actual sin or God's absolute demands.

Why did an omniscient god change his mind about wiping out all life with a flood?

The NT is a more significant change in the nature of God than simple redefinition of the fundamental principles of forgiveness followed by heaven.

 

There's a simple solution here: don't read it then.

 

All I know is that God is real, he lives and is divine. And we all know him but have all forgotten him. That's why there are so many different religions, beliefs, and philosophies. It is a quest to find our way back to a remembrance and to true life.

 

Did you ever hear the one about the little Dutch boy who stuck his finger in the leaking dike and saved the country? Good stuff...and kind of a miracle!

 

As the non-practicing Jew pointed out to you, you can still get a lot out of it even though you aren't Jewish. The reason why it is about the Jewish people (nation of Israel) is because God chose them to be "his people" (from which Jesus would be born). Jesus had to be born from some nation, and God happened to choose the nation of Israel.

The Old Testament is written down for a single general purpose, and that purpose is to prophesy of a coming Savior (Jesus). Both the laws of Moses and the prophets point towards a coming Savior (Jesus). The Jews had a temple because it pointed towards Jesus being the ultimate temple. The Jews performed blood sacrifices with unblemished animals because it pointed towards Jesus being the ultimate unblemished blood sacrifice. There's numerous examples like that throughout.

Old Testament = anticipation (of a coming Savior of mankind to save them from their sinful nature)
New Testament = fulfillment (the Savior of mankind was born, lived, died, and rose again, defeating death and sin, and will one day return to Earth with his bride, the Holy Christian Church, in all his glory as King)

 

Do you want to discuss any of those questions? If so, pick one that troubles you the most or that you're most interested in. I'd be happy to talk about any of the questions you present but there isn't enough time in my day to discuss them all at one go.

 

That's simply Christian teaching. The OT tells us that the Jews were chosen to present gods ways to the nations around. Nothing in the OT points to Jesus - who was simply a
Jewish preacher. The Jews had/have their own hopes for a Messiah who would be a normal man with charisma and who would lead them to vicrtory at the end of time. Christianity has simply misinterpreted the Hebrew Tanakh for its own religion. Jesus is not named or indicated anywhere in the Yanakh. There's no attempt to understand the Tanakh as it was written 2500 years ago. The background, history, religious teaching of the time etc. etc.

 

I agree that we can't discuss all those in one post.

However, the point is more than these are questions where not all branches of the Abrahamic faith believe in a common answer and where there is real opportunity for the allegories to have meanings based on the ancient societies where they were created.

For example, the two Genesis creation stories show divisions in creation (light, water, ...). What is meant by these is clearly allegorical. But, what that meant to the ancients does not appear to be clear.

 

One of the complications a lot of people run into when reading the Bible, OT in particular, is treating it as a historical document. While there are historical aspects to the passages the purpose is the dissemination of wisdom or, more correctly, a guide for how and why to seek wisdom. In this pursuit it is important to understand what wisdom is and I have found it most beneficial to think of wisdom as the process of putting knowledge to work in productive ways. When we read a history we are generally pursuing knowledge of a timeline of events. We may seek to expand our knowledge of that timeline to include the reasons for the changes that occurred. Wisdom comes in when we seek to understand how that timeline and the reasons for that timeline effect us today and are likely to effect us in the future. That is what the Word of God exists for. It is not an answer in and of itself but, rather, a reason to pursue answers and evaluate the answers we find with regard to their eternal impact on ourselves and our progeny.

 

I think you are agreeing with me.

The challenge of Genesis is what the creation story was meant to impart. And, I think it would be clearer if we knew more about the society that existed at the time when the Genesis version was created. It's a pretty amazing story. I think it would be disappointing if it were no more than a statement that God created the universe.

I think we know something of the time that Genesis 1 was written. But, it could well have come from an oral tradition far older. Writing had long been invented in Sumer, but that doesn't preclude oral tradition or lost documents.

With the Eden story, there are some pretty clear elements that indicate a flaw in human nature that is evident even today.

 

John refers to the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, suggesting that Jesus Christ was chosen and known as the savior since the time of the creation.
The Book Of Mormon also testifies of Jesus Christ, by name, by a host of individuals, over the course of several hundred years before his birth. It also testifies of his visitation to people on this side of the earth after his resurrection. The Bible isn't the all of God or the end of his work.

 

Anything said about god would have to apply to the beginning of the universe wouldn't it?

Or, are there ways in which god changes over time?

 

I suppose it would. LDS doctrine states that the worlds created by God are too numerable for man to number. But that God knows them all. Jesus Christ is our savior.

 

Of course!

(You should say "too numerous", as "numerable" means they can be counted.)

 

Where a lot of people get hung up, even very learned people, is with the understanding that Genesis is a narrative written by Moses. I would suggest that such an understanding misses the point. Whether it was written by Moses or not is less important than the origin of these stories which is with God himself. It is most important to recognize that God created all things with His word. Whether future words were written by Moses or some Mesopotamian or someone in China makes no difference whatsoever because ALL words, all knowledge, stems from the creation which is the work of God.

As you note, the Eden story expresses a fundamental flaw with man. Man, we are told, was created in the image of God, not as a duplicate of God. Just as our offspring are not direct copies of ourselves, neither are men direct copies of God. We are also told that the purpose of man is to tend and keep God's creation. We are not meant to be creators ourselves but, rather, stewards of creation. We are to be fruitful and multiply. The way we remain fruitful is to seek the Word of God. When we choose to ignore or interpret for ourselves what that Word is we end up struggling to be fruitful. Such is the lesson of Adam and Eve, should we choose to seek the wisdom of that message.

 

LOL. Good catch. Thanks. Too much time has passed for me to correct it.

 

I would suggest that Moses didn't necessarily get Genesis directly from God. He may well have written it. But regardless, the two stories are clearly allegorical and may be a documentation of a long oral history of humans about whose society we know next to nothing.

That doesn't mean they didn't carry important meaning, of course. However, it's hard to now know the details.

I think there is fairly wide agreement among theologians that the central issue is that Adam partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which was God's alone.

He saw himself as worthy of being a judge of mankind (holding the knowledge of good and evil), which is reserved for god alone.

I don't accept the creation part of that, as the knowledge of good and evil is the purview of judges.

 

The the first sentence in bold: I don't take stories of talking animals as seriously as I would if it were humans talking. I don't give the talking animals on Saturday morning cartoons my children, nieces and nephews watch a second thought. I'm not a child and I take offense at Christians thinking that talking to me in an infantilizing manner will win me over.

Addressing the whole paragraph in bold: I said this about other holy books; there may be pearls of wisdom scattered within the text, but I have to slog through hundreds of pages of irrelevant or objectionable information. As I result I treat the Old Testament like any other book; remember what is of value and forget the rest. I may admire the fact that David spared Saul's life twice in 1 Samuel (though his excuse for showing mercy was because Saul was "God's anointed" made the story less profound), but the purple drapes of the Tabernacle in Exodus is irrelevant and not important to my salvation. I don't feel the "spirit" or "holy ghost" if you prefer while reading the long list of names from chapters 1-9 in 1 Chronicles. I've had more profound moments reading other books. So why put the Bible on a pedestal? Finally, let me just say that I don't need a man behind a lectern every weekend reading from the same book as if I'm in school my whole life learning the same things over and over.

To the final sentence in bold: I remain unconvinced that there were people experiencing God looking at how badly written the whole text is. The golden calf story sounds stupid. I personally wouldn't be so impatient for my tribal leader (Moses) to return from a journey up a mountain, that I'd create my own religion on the spot and bow down to an inanimate object.

The fact that most Jews to this day reject Christ (I say most because of the Messianic Jews who are Christian but are still Jews practicing their customs) to this day speaks a lot. It is their ancestors who WROTE the Old Testament. Despite what that non practicing Jew said in the previous thread, I wouldn't put it past Jews to be privately laughing at Christian misunderstandings of the scriptures. Silly Gentile! Adonai did not create the law of Moses for it to be done away with later!

I couldn't have put it better myself. See response above.

 

Right.

That's simply Jewish teaching.

See how that works?