If Jesus died for my sins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    That may be because god does not punish sin and shows his hate of the sinner by hell.

    Regards
    DL
     
  2. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    But, way I see it, he died for everybody's sins.
    Not everybody who ever was and ever will be, but, just everyone in general, meaning everybody.
    So, people around the year 33AD/CE, he died for.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  3. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is a fact that human nature does have placed within it the knowledge of sin and a need for repentence. It is only through the hardening of the human heart that the knowledge is erased. Blood sacrifice is the most costly sacrifice possible. The Creator fulfilled that by offering the Only Perfect sacrifice possible once and for all.
     
  4. cristiansoldier

    cristiansoldier Well-Known Member

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    According to my brother in law, who is a pastor, it is not a matter of asking Jesus for forgiveness it is accepting him into your heart. If you live a life of sin or simply think you will be forgiven by asking for it in your death bed you would be mistaken.
     
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  5. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    I would give your brother-in-law credit for having one opinion. My one opinion is it's all b.s. :)
     
  6. cristiansoldier

    cristiansoldier Well-Known Member

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    Just trying to be helpful and gave you a christian perspective for the question you asked. If you already know the answer what is the point of asking?
     
  7. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Brother in law is right on. Asking for forgiveness can be just a matter of moving ones lips. It may fool others but it does not fool God. Maybe some don't recognize who God is? Maybe they think he is fooled by politicians like many of us are?
     
  8. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Who is more likely to see justice in punishing the innocent instead of the guilty? Satan or Yahweh?

    Every judge in the land seek to justly punish the guilty and not the innocent, and here you are promoting Satan's choice, the opposite.

    Explain yourself.

    Regards
    DL
     
  9. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Who is God?

    God is a title. Right?

    Only if the victim dies and stays dead. That is not the case here, so there was no real sacrifice of the Jesus chimera god you must believe in.

    Regards
    DL
     
  10. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Is that why you sing in your Exsultet hymn that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan?

    Dogma indicates that we are to follow our god given natures, and happily sin, so as to not derail god's plan.

    The only unforgivable sin is not seeing how much of a foul god Yahweh is. Him being genocidal and all. Thank all the gods he is not real.

    Regards
    DL
     
  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    So what? Everyone 'has opinions' often mutually contradicting ones. You think some event 'should be' someone else disagrees. What makes you right and them wrong or vice versa? Again - acts either happen or they don't, whether they should have happened is irrelevant. Facts not opinions.

    Also wrong, read what I posted again. I did not claim any special knowledge of God. What I did do was state a logical position. Your the one who stated that (all?) 'things are as they should be ' By default then you as an individual are claiming some unique and all encompassing insight into how the universe functions. (And it has to be all encompassing in order to account of infinite number of possible variables at play in random events on a cosmic scale - i.e. the butterflies wing.)

    My position is that humans do not and cannot have the perspective or intellectual capabilities needed for such understanding. To know and comprehend the purpose of every event in the universe is to know the universe. By default this requires omnipresent powers of observation i.e. God.

    All humans can do is strive and when that fails endure and accept. So I claim no 'special knowledge' of God. You framed the opening statement - I just provided the only possible solution.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  12. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    For someone whose always accusing others of claiming unique insight into the nature of the Almighty you seem to claim an awful lot of 'special' knowledge yourself at times.

    God is genocidal? Do tell! He told you that personally did he?

    Alternately its not God whose 'genocidal' but instead (to the extent the claim is valid at all) its his humans followers who go all 'killy killy' from time to time. While God looks on doing his best Jean-Luc Piccard face slap.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    One possibility. Another is that hell is real and any 'sinner' who ends up there does so as a consequence of their own voluntary actions and free will. Like choosing walk off a cliff or not, either way you end up where you end up based on your choices and yours alone!

    Ultimately there's only one way to find out though isn't there.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    You have given up trying to be the fittest, by selling your soul to Satan and supernatural beliefs.

    Jesus warned against idolatry and look at you.

    I do agree with you that many are called and that few hear it.

    You did thanks to your supernatural ear muffs.

    Regards
    DL
     
  15. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  16. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    IDK.

    You are the believer in talking serpents and donkeys that would live in the hell that the less astute believe in.

    As to your premise of choice. Interesting but wrong.

    Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.

    It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or *******ned sin.

    1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

    This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

    If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

    God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

    This then begs the question.

    What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

    Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.

    The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

    One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

    ------------------------

    Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

    That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

    But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

    If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

    Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

    Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

    Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

    Consider.

    First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

    Evil then is only human to human.

    As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

    Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

    Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

    This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

    Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

    There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

    Regards
    DL

    -----------------------

    Evolutionary theology.
     
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  17. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Who mentioned idolatry? You claimed 'special powers' re; your alleged ability to comprehend the nature of the Universe. I simply pointed out that no one human being has that level of processing power or the reach to do so. For that matter we don't have collectively as a species.
     
  18. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    If you are to attribute something to me, quote it, as I see such claims as coming from liars.

    When lies are all one has left, -------

    Regards
    DL
     
  19. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    My beliefs are my own and I have made no claims here about my beliefs whatsoever. If you don't believe that go back and check - its true. What I have done is answer questions posed by yourself and posited alternate points of view. You don't like those possible viewpoints? No problem, they were raised as alternate positions in a debate not as gospel. I would however appreciate not being 'buttonholed' by you with convenient labels just because you think you know what I believe.
     
  20. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Sure thing, here you go - Post 170.

    'IOW, things are as they should be but most do not see it. Even when a child veers under a truck.'

    There's your claim to 'special knowledge' in a nutshell. Anything else I can do?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  21. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    What ? No follow up, after the stream of self important, existential diarrhea you've been spewing to date?
     
  22. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    If hell is as depicted by most religious fire and Brimstone fundamentalist Christians today, I can see this making sense. I like to think I would be one who would be of strong ebough character and moral fibre to make that choice you speak of and place myself in hell, to suffer hellfire rather than submit willingly to a celestial tyrant who cares more about our blind obedience to him than anything resembling being kind and good to our fellow mortal beings.

    Ultimately yes. And we both may be surprised as we cross the river styx into hades or Valhalla.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  23. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Pascal seemed to think so. Its the basis of his wager.
     
  24. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    I dont think that addresses the problem of vicarious redemption for future sin.
     
  25. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    That definitely would make a lot more sense of it than most modern church's teach.
     

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