If Jesus died for my sins

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Jolly Penguin, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. Badaboom

    Badaboom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Better stock up. The big bad are coming!
     
  2. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK. I've responding to more than one poster so may well have mixed you up. Sorry.
     
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  3. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    But hitler didnt, he stands to this day falselyh accused. Even Eisenhower junior noted that the french did not want to be rescued by the americans or british because the germans treated their people far better. americans raped and pillaged, the same would have gotten german soldiers shot.

    Exactly! They create a god and pretend they have none. The process is far too complex for most of them to comprehend. All one needs to do is take a quick look how this gov creates hate and discontent between americans with their 2 party system and the pretense of democracy that ends at the polls.

    I have said many times, everyone not in a coma has and exersises their brand of religion regardless of the 'ism(s)' they adhere to, govmints can impose and force gov religion in the form of law onto people but not individual religion, which is why 'freedom to EXERCISE your religion' is so dangerous to this govmint!

    This country was originally intended (not designed however) to operate from an extensive legal system, through courts, not 'peg in hole cookie cutter statutes', summary judgement, and other injustices created that insure the gubmint maintains and overlord status. Americans continue to buy boatloads of wooden nickels.

    hey give them a break its all they got!
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  4. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    Read up on the Cathars and see how they refute the into to your rendering.

    Remember too that most of what you read was put into history by a mass murdering bunch of inquisitors who wanted to deny all free thought.

    Most seem to give those bastards credibility even today.

    Not too G D bright. Right?

    As I said, better to ask after you learn a bit of what you criticize.

    Gnostic Christianity was the moral side of Christianity and thus superior to the rank and file. That is why we went after Yahweh. An obvious evil god in those days before literal reading of myths soured everything.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  5. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    No. Neither is any of that on anything at issue.

    Continue to be a grouchy old C S and we will not enjoy your intellect further.

    I am trying to reduce my grouchy old C S inclinations, and want to get away from triggers.

    I also do not have the time for long copy paste.

    Regards
    DL
     
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  6. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    No one is that stupid are they?

    If I have to tell you why people should comply with their oaths, and that is the ethical thing to do, --------

    To the issue.
    Yes, religion is in our tribal programming. Religion was and is synonymous with tribe.

    Our instinctive substance dualism could be a part of this. Nurture is also a factor but that is instinct as well.

    Our first tribe/religion is our families, then kin and peers, then the greater world.

    We are likely most insecure animal on the planet. Our selfish gene recognizes the security of the tribe instinctively.

    If not born in one, how could one live.

    Regards
    DL
     
  7. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

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    I don't disagree completely, though I think "coextensive"or "coterminus" is more accurate than "synonymous."

    The thing is, I kind of like the idea of belonging to a tribe. I'm jealous of these small communities of gypsies in Europe that go in and out of each others' house, and play their own music and speak their own language and have fun all day and all night.

    Of course, I don't have that, my "tribe" being scattered family and then other Americans who are strangers 1000 mile away, and whose vote I have to respect in order to prevent civil war.

    To a large extent you can't even criticize their points of view without imperiling your career or safety. I can, but others cannot. All these frigging trigger words snd speech codes on our campuses, words like "hate speech!" and inclusiveness requirements that make you a bigot if you don't agree.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
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  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as gnostic christian, they are incomparable.


    What is Christian Gnosticism?

    Question: "What is Christian Gnosticism?"

    Answer:
    There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

    Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

    Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

    To discredit the idea of any compatibility between Christianity and Gnosticism, one has only to compare their teachings on the main doctrines of the faith. On the matter of salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. Although they claim to follow Jesus Christ and His original teachings, Gnostics contradict Him at every turn. Jesus said nothing about salvation through knowledge, but by faith in Him as Savior from sin. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Furthermore, the salvation Christ offers is free and available to everyone (John 3:16), not just a select few who have acquired a special revelation.

    Christianity asserts that there is one source of Truth and that is the Bible, the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 4:12). It is God’s written revelation to mankind and is never superseded by man’s thoughts, ideas, writings, or visions. The Gnostics, on the other hand, use a variety of early heretical writings known as the Gnostic gospels, a collection of forgeries claiming to be “lost books of the Bible.” Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic “gospels” and the Bible. Even when the so-called Christian Gnostics quote from the Bible, they rewrite verses and parts of verses to harmonize with their philosophy, a practice that is strictly forbidden and warned against by Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18-19).

    The Person of Jesus Christ is another area where Christianity and Gnosticism drastically differ. The Gnostics believe that Jesus’ physical body was not real, but only “seemed” to be physical, and that His spirit descended upon Him at His baptism, but left Him just before His crucifixion. Such views destroy not only the true humanity of Jesus, but also the atonement, for Jesus must not only have been truly God, but also the truly human (and physically real) man who actually suffered and died upon the cross in order to be the acceptable substitutionary sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 2:14-17). The biblical view of Jesus affirms His complete humanity as well as His full deity.

    Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, emotional approach to truth which is not new at all. It is very old, going back in some form to the Garden of Eden, where Satan questioned God and the words He spoke and convinced Adam and Eve to reject them and accept a lie. He does the same thing today as he “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). He still calls God and the Bible into question and catches in his web those who are either naïve and scripturally uninformed or who are seeking some personal revelation to make them feel special, unique, and superior to others. Let us follow the Apostle Paul who said to “test everything. Hold on to the good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and this we do by comparing everything to the Word of God, the only Truth. https://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html


    No need to read any copy paste and feel free to not read my posts, but trust me I WILL be reading yours and correcting all the tangents you post. My attitude has no influence on the facts, your mistake.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
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  9. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    For some reason there is an inherent human belief that God(s) must be placated and or petitioned by sacrifice that involves the spilling of blood. Thus the concept of Jesus suffering death to pay our debt is more or less the same as the Aztec idea of nextlahualli (debt-payment).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture
     
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  10. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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  11. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Don't believe the theologies of these two concepts are comparable. Yes christian theology sees the crucifixion as the payment of a debt owed by humanity as a whole but that sacrifice permanently altered the relationship between man and God. (Basically restoring it to what it was before the fall.) The Aztec link you referenced sees continuing sacrifices as essential to maintaining order in the heavens. (Or if you prefer the machine breaks down if not fed blood.)

    So Christian theology, the universe is out of kilter - one death restores the balance permanently. Aztec theology, sacrificial deaths are continual and permanent feature of the universe, required to maintain the universe in its natural state. One death means nothing.
     
  12. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I like hate speech, given that there is much to hate about our mainstream god religions.

    How can we rid ourselves of vile religions if we cannot hate them for the harm they continue to do to women and gays.

    The immoral do not see the value of hating evil and working against it.

    Regards
    DL
     
  13. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I cannot argue against a copy paste from a place that uses mythos and lies while I use logos.

    Choose which thinking system you want to defend.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  14. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    All rather silly when considering that a Christian must have a really inflated ego to think 6that a god would die for them. How special.

    Regards
    DL
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  15. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    How can that be when Christians sing that Adam's sin kept Yahweh's plan on the rails with his sin being called a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

    What threw the plan off the rail? Not sin.

    Regards
    DL
     
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Of course you grant a free pass for all the atheist religions, now we have a zionist el prezzidante and I am sure he will fix everything!
    at least you admit your position is so weak that you have no counter argument this time.
    there is no greater inflated ego than I have seen from atheists trying to defend their bankrupt philosophies


    better luck next time
     
  17. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps because certain outcomes (good and bad) are simply unavoidable. You can teach a child to ride a bike, with training wheels on and you holding onto their shoulder. But before you even start you know the point will come where the training wheels have to come off and you have to let go. You also know that skinned knees, bruises etc will inventively result. That's life.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  18. yabberefugee

    yabberefugee Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's a waste of time talking to one who "feels he knows better than God.
     
  19. Matt84

    Matt84 Well-Known Member

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    Sweet
     
  20. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    IOW, things are as they should be but most do not see it.

    Even when a child veers under a truck.

    Regards
    DL
     
  21. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

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    "Jesus died for my sins" is a false Christian belief that drives you into the hands of Satan.

    God wants you to be good, that you deserve paradise. So stay away from anyone who says Jesus died on the cross.

    Only you will be held accountable for your sins, nobody else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
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  22. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect. No events fall under the category of 'things as they should be'. Efforts made to prevent some things from occurring not withstanding events (good or bad) happen but that does not mean they 'should be'. To paraphrase Yoda 'there is no should be. There is only what is and what is not'.

    Or in other words what has happened and what hasn't happened. Established events (good and bad) are facts nothing more or less. And that says nothing about the question of whether they 'should be'. The only being in a position to say 'should be' is God. Humans don't have that luxury.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  23. Monash

    Monash Well-Known Member

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    Then you are no different from people you claim to despise in your comment below. Welcome to the club.

    I think that can best be summed up by the comment 'hate the sin not the sinner'. A fact all to many people both inside the great religions of the world as well as outside seen to forget all to often.

    Prove it. Assuming the existence of omnipresent immortal (as opposed to a Marvel Comics immortal) it can be argued that by default this Immortal cannot help but to be aware of the effects of both good and evil. Even if not moved to intervene, they must be aware of it in the same way they would be 'aware' of every hydrogen molecule in the Universe. They literally wouldn't be able to avoid being aware of us, the acts we commit and the consequences of those acts.

    Now, they might chose to ignore those acts. Just like you might choose to ignore an annoying itch. That doesn't mean your not conscious of it though. And then again perhaps you might chose not to ignore that itch. So perhaps its a matter of choice then.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  24. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree.

    You are obviously incorrect given that I have opinions.

    How in hell can you know anything about some supernatural god?

    Regards
    DL
     
  25. Greatest I am

    Greatest I am Well-Known Member

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    True, except for my better moral sense.

    Genocidal gods like Yahweh are evil. Right?

    Regards
    DL
     

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