Is it moral for God to punish us?

Cars are inherently dangerous and can result in death but it is disingenuous to ascribe something that existed long before cars were invented to Henry Ford.

Your god created death, suffering and sin along with everything else that harms human beings.

 

Just because science has not yet resolved how something works does not automatically mean that some imaginary deity is responsibile.

When the bible was written comets were assumed to be "messages from god". Science has not only identified what comets are but has managed to land a space craft on one of them.

 

According to the biblical fairy tale most people will go to hell. The other two alternatives are the sea or death. The good news is that everyone will make bail on Judgment Day, whether they are in hell, the sea, or death. And just because a person was in hell it doesn't mean that he won;t get into the golden cube called New Jerusalem. But he has to belong to the club. If the person doesn't get into the golden cube he gets thrown in the lake of fire, which is not hell. Hell and death are also thrown into the lake of fire.

In Islam a man is dead until Judgment Day. If Allah likes him then he gets a 60 mile wide pearl shell as his paradise with a couple of 90 foot tall translucent virgins, a bunch of women from hell, and a herd of cute boys. That's why the women are virgins. Most of the people in the Islamic hell are women. The Islamic hell is really hellish and should be avoided if possible.

It seems that most people think that the Islamic hell is the biblical hell but they are very different. The biblical hell is temporary and everyone in it will get out never to return. In the Islamic hell no one is sent there until Judgment Day and it's forever. It's a very nasty place indeed.

 

Current atheist, former fundamental Baptist here, so I can argue both sides of this question. I came up with an analogy concerning free will v. predestination that I liked as a Baptist from reading the experience of an author writing. The author said that as a writer, he created characters in his mind and then gave them a situation to deal with, but that as he wrote, the characters would "come alive" to him and begin acting in ways that even he found surprising, and that his books never ended like he thought they would when he started writing them. What if, I thought, God created us as characters but did not choose our actions for us? Then our personality would reveal itself through the situations we had to deal with, and our will was our own but our actions were predictable based on the personality we were given. That brings us back to the problem of evil, but it nicely solves the problem of free will.

As an atheist, of course, this is an exercise in sophistry. But to the atheists, I say atheism is no answer, either, because without God, there is no external standard of morality, so anything goes. It's immoral for God to punish us, but it is likewise immoral for God NOT to punish us. The thought that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao are not being tortured in hell for all eternity bothers me considerably.

 

That brainwashing worked pretty well on you, didn't it?

 

Scientists don't have a freaking clue how, or why, the universe exists. They never will either. All they can do is theorize. They will never be able to reach any conclusions about it. Since they don't know how, or why the universe came to be, a belief in a Creator is just as valid as any of the 'theories' science has come up with. BTW, there is plenty of evidence for a Creator. You are simply too blind to see it. For instance, what was the primal cause of the Big Bang? Everything has a cause. So what caused it, if not God? Where did the energy for this Big Bang come from? I could go on.

How about this one? Where did the universal physical constants come from? What caused them to exist? They are immaterial, yet they affect the material. they DEFINE it. Our universe obeys these laws. They are absolute and immutable. Where did these universal laws come from? I guess you believe they simply popped into existence all by themselves. Open your eyes. The evidence is all around you.

 

That is all fine, but then that makes God Not Omniscient. Which is fine, but when I ask if God is omniscient, the answer in all but 1 case has been yes. An omniscient God can not be surprised.

As for needing God for morality, how has every other civilization evolved and prospered without this God. In some cases, no god.
Human can regulate themselves, like the animal kingdom can regulate it.

 

Ok, let's address your baseless assumptions.

You are fallaciously assuming that the universe was "created" rather than the fact that the universe has always existed and will always exist in one form or another. The current form of the universe as we are observing it is a tiny fraction of time in the eternity oi it's existence but it is sufficient to determine several facts. The laws of physics apply to the physical universe and those laws apply universally no matter where you are in the universe. Our ability to observe the universe is limited to the tools at our disposal. As they improve so does our knowledge of the universe.

But let's address your fallacy about "popping into existence all by themselves". You assume that the universe was "created" by some deity but there is no evidence to support that assumption. What is even worse is that if you examine your assumption it becomes a logical fallacy. The laws of physics state that matter can neither be created nor destoryed. But your assumption is that your deity created matter that he cannot destroy. If your deity cannot destroy what he created then it cannot be omnipotent and therefore cannot be a deity.

Before you question the basis for science it is best to be sure that the basis for your beliefs isn't questionable.

Unlike religion science doesn't pretend to have all the answers but it does obey the rules of logic and reason and is self correcting.

 

First of all, it's energy that cannot be created or destroyed. Not matter. And that statement only applies to humans. We cannot create or destroy energy. And talk about fallacious statements. Who said God could not create or destroy energy? Where did you get that from? Did you just make that up. And there is plenty of evidence for a Creator, you are simply too ignorant to see it. And your claim that the universe has always existed is contrary to the universal law of cause and effect. The universe had a beginning. This is a scientific fact. You are also faced with the question of where the universal physical constants came from. Oh wait. You believe that they always existed too. Another violation of the law of cause and effect. Priceless.

 

There is no such punishment but that which you create for yourself.

 

Define "civilization". The Aztecs sacrificed the losers in war by cutting out their hearts while alive and then serving up the bodies for feasting. Without God, how can you call what they did "wrong"? Just because YOU think it's wrong? Or WE (the current generation) think it's wrong? The animal kingdom has zero morality, so that argument falls down immediately.

 

The twits thought that the massive stars were just tiny specks of light that came out at night. They were clueless.

 

Doesn't mean they were clueless, or stupid. There is an order to the universe. An order that cannot be explained without a Creator. People like you cling to science, like a religion, yet science has no answers for why we're here. And they never will. How do you explain the universal physical constants? Immaterial laws that govern every aspect of existence. Where did these laws come from? Where did the energy required for the big bang come from? You people claim that it has always existed, yet ridicule us for believing in an eternal Creator. That's what's know as a logical disconnect. No. Science doesn't have the answers, and it never will. So until they do, my belief in a Creator is just as valid as any scientific explanation, that explains absolutely nothing. Cling to your religion. I stick with mine, and I'll see you on Judgement Day. I'll wave to you, as you are tossed into the lake of fire.

 

It appears you are still suffering from Christian cultism. It should not please you that anyone suffer such a ridiculous punishment.

 

What is morality? Who defines it?
God killed the entire planet. Except for things on the ark. Define morality. If the God we're talking about is the bible god.

 

I notice you convienently dismissed the omniscient part of the discussion. Why?

 

Yes, they were clueless and stupid. They barely had a language.

The logical disconnect is this thing you think created the universe and more, is written in the bible. Cling to your religion, but don't pretend that character is the creator of everything. It's just a story of a tribe 2000+ yrs ago.
You are following the wrong religion, therefore you WILL BE in the LAKE OF FIRE. You love Paul and not Jesus. Burn.

 

This is like asking is it wrong for a parent to punish a child
for behaving as a child and not understanding because they are too young and not able.

1. If personal safety or health is at stake, and the only way to stop the unsafe behavior
is to punish, then isn't it immoral for the parent NOT to "punish" the child if that's the only way to teach
until the child IS old enough to understand?

2. As for when does punishment become abuse
a. if it is excessive and not necessary but used to set example for others BEYOND what is reasonable, needed or effective
b. if it is for the benefit of the authority and not for the benefit of the recipient of the punishment
c. if it is against the agreement between the people or the rules that were established; if the person
wasn't given the opportunity to agree to the rules first before enforcing them, or were unable to understand
(see # 1 that if the person's health or safety is at risk, that may be more important than having their permission or understanding in advance)

3. as for collective punishment
is it moral to punish innocent people to motivate action to be taken to correct the cause of the problem on the part of others
a. is it just for wars to end up killing and harming innocent civilians for the cause of protest and fighting against injustice caused by others
b. if people in collective society are negligent in not addressing or stopping the cause of addiction, abuse and crime
is it moral to allow these problems to continue to the point that innocent people are harmed and are thus being "punished"
for the omissions and failures of society as a whole?

for the last two areas, no, I do not think that is moral.
But it does happen to MOTIVATE corrections needed to PREVENT immoral punishment of innocent persons
or excessive punishment outside the agreed protocol and process.

It is not moral to allow these to continue.
And for that reason, it is morally imperative to correct and prevent such occurrences.

So in this learning curve to achieve higher justice and lasting peace,
this authority referred to as God does allow these immoral and unjust consequences
until humanity learns to prevent them. They are the consequences so we can learn cause and effect.

it isn't just to allow the suffering to continue for the faults of all society.
Thus it is our moral duty to find the solutions and implement corrections.

Because the laws of justice are on the side of corrections,
then the authority that God/Jesus represent are on the side of what is morally superior and the laws governing humanity
tend to favor and support positive actions and intentions in that direction,
they do not favor actions or intentions toward enabling or furthering immorally excessive or collective punishments.

The more we understand how the laws of justice work,
we can better work in harmony with them instead of against.

So we work toward a more "perfect" moral and harmonious society
starting with correcting problems in our local relations and world around us.

If we don't like punishments but prefer corrections,
then we seek the same; and influence others. So collectively
we share responsibility for correction and prevention of abuse or wrongs,
to avoid immoral or unjust punishments that occur because something has gone wrong.

 

Does someone like Ghandi deserved to be punished for eternity?

The only way to keep a kid safe is to punish? Really?

A hot pot, to me, the best way to teach a kid it's hot is to let them touch it and find out what hot is. That isn't punishment, that is teaching.
Get into the 21st century.

 

Granny says...

... if God thinks it's moral to chastize us...

... den its moral.

 

It is moral, but it is not fair. A Creator can no more be fair with their creature than and author can be fair with their character.
Moral yes, fair no.

 

So you don't know that matter and energy are the same only in different states?

Omnipotence is a logical paradox. If your deity can create something that he cannot destroy then your deity can't be omnipotent and if can create something that he can't create something he cannot destroy then he cannot be omnipotent. Ergo your deity is either not omnipotent or doesn't exist.

There is zero evidence for a creator. Onus is entirely on you to provide such evidence.

Onus is entirely on you to prove that the universe had a beginning.

And yes, the onus is on you to prove that your deity "created" the universal physical constants too.

 

Since I don't believe in God anymore, discussion of the Flood, omniscience, or whether God is good or bad is unnecessary.

Morality is essentially undefinable except in circular terms, i.e., morality is doing good, doing good is doing that which is moral. Hence the need for an external standard by which to measure morality, e.g., the Ten Commandments. Now back to you: I can use the Bible to condemn cannibalism. What have you got?

 

Another variation on this question is.....
is it moral for the being of light of NDE fame to actually expect us to look at our actions....
and thoughts..... objectively and honestly and actually admit that we were imperfect?


Is it moral for higher level intelligences to raise up a political leader who will expose
deep and dark secrets in Washington?

Is America going through something like the Life Review of NDE fame?

What we perceive as punishment.... may actually be motivated
with entirely different goals than some form of vengeance.... as we might
have in mind if it was our job to assist people to review their lives!

http://www.near-death.com/science/research/life-review.html
The Life Review and the Near-Death Experience

 

You suffer from a misunderstanding of the word omnipotent, as it relates to God. Nothing is greater than God. Thus, He is omnipotent. And I don't have to prove anything. God is God, whether you believe in Him or not. Your unbelief changes nothing.