Is Jesus divine?

Just as well as it twists and turns to adhere to the faith of many.

 

Of course I understand reproduction. When did single cells become male and female to produce 50% of their own liking?.....especially we know that cells normally divide to reproduce. You are saying that somehow that is a product of evolution/chance?

 

I chose Flavius Josephus and Cornelius Tacitus because both were renowned historians, and, neither of them was a Christian.

Each of them lived and wrote extensive, well-documented historical tracts in the decades shortly after Jesus Christ was crucified. Hopefully by recommending non-Christian, well-known and respected historians, like Josephus and Tacitus, it blunts the anticipated criticism that would surely attend mention of testimony about Jesus Christ attributable to early Christian sources....

This ain't my first rodeo.

 

We don't have all the answer of events over several billion years. It was not till the 17th century that the idea of everything being made of atoms was shown as real. Yet Democritus in the 4th century BCE stated it - what turned out to be fact - 2000 years later. Certain diseases were known and named by the ancients Egyptians and up to recently we used their resuscitation method for people with heart and breathing difficulties. What I am saying is that many trillion events have occurred - Virtually nothing is impossible.
.If god planted the seed of life in man he did an awfully bad job. I live next to a school for children of learning difficulties. Some will never accomplish much in their lives. This runs parallel with weak animals and runts who do not survive. and yet god made them.
Science is improving by the year. The Christian faith is declining with the advance of science and the ability to refuse indoctrination and study for oneself. It is estimated that at the current rate there will be more Muslims in the US than Christians. Unfortunately that is down to indoctrination.

 

I agree totally. They were what we would call to day "secular" historians without bias.

 

Says the Clay to the Potter.

Denominational faith might be on the decline. Worldwide, there are more Christians than ever. How much science IS indoctrination? Quite a bit I suspect!

How many years does it take to make 2+2=5? com'on use your logic!

 

I find it incredulous that you and others believe the Bible to be true without actually reading it against the backgound of the day in which it was written.
Luke 2 NLT 'At that time the Roman Emperor, Augustus, that a census should be taken throughout the Roman Empire.'
Really? The Roman Empire of the time included most of England, most of Europe, North Africa, Asia Minor, the Middle East and Egypt. Several million square miles. Even with todays technology we would be hard put to achieve this. Some Germanic tribes were mobile as were the Berbers of North Africa. Did the sensor chase them across the desert.

For arguments sake let's say Luke just meant the Middle East.

If you believe the Bible story of David he had 20 sons. With large families of those days and the 900 years since his death his descendants would be in the upper tens of thousands. In the 900 years we know that thousands of Jews had fled to Egypt, North Africa (where Marks family came from) and Italy before 3 invasions of Palestine to escape the invaders. Jeremiah mentions escapees to Egypt. So Davids family would also be widespread. The idea of Joseph and Mary having to make a 4 day journey to Bethlehem pales into insignificance when you consider the hundreds of miles other would have had to travel and arrive at the census time. On top of which the huge number of Davids family descending on Bethlehem would have been impossible. There were no food deliveries to shops and bakeries from outside. The families would not have survived as many families had travelled so far unable to carry enough food for a large family.

What Luke does not mention is that if David's family had to return to David's birthplace, so would many other families have to return to their forebears birthplace. The Middle East, or at least Palestine, would have been in Chaos.

Archaeologist excavating in Egypt found a notice regarding a later Roman census of the Province which would have been pinned to a village wall telling people to stay at home for the census.

Undoubtedly censuses were carried out at times in arears. When Archelaus was removed by the Romans, Quirinous - Governor of Syria - was given the task of a census of ex-king Archelaus area to check 'the accounts'.

Matthews story is equally questionable - and he contradicts himself.

All in all Matthew and Luke contradict each other . Matthew send Joseph and family to Egypt for at least 2 years and Luke sends them home after about 40 days - and they stay there until Jesus is grown up.

 

You claim to really have a pulse on the history of the time. I would rather rely on the "contemporaries" because if your assessments are even close to true, they would have seen the Gospels as very laughable and refuted them!

 

Just another reply here that might settle our discussion. God is beyond the scope of time, space, and matter. Given this, He can enter at His choosing. You do not even acknowledge that at your own choosing so all of our discussions are in vain. Your faith confines you to those three things. It does not work for us, sorry.

 

Then why don't you check them. Like you, people are not encouraged to study outside the Bible. It might show the errors in the Bible. People who have, have come to the same conclusion as I have - the Bible is not reliable. You have never studied other than what you have been told. The Church has been guilty of indoctrination ever since Constantine. Look up the activity of the Roman Church. Look at preachers even today who preach hell and damnation to those who won't agree with them. You condemn me without any justification except your beliefs. If someone could PROVE Jesus was a mythical character you would not believe them. Prove my facts are wrong.

 

You have yet to show that god exists except in your own mind. If god can enter at any time people need not have been martyred for their beliefs. Wars need not have happened. Christians in Arab countries need not be persecuted and most of all the Council of Nicea need not have happened to clear up the different beliefs in the early church. Strange god.

If you wish to ignore facts so be it.

 

From the first page to the last, the Bible testifies that God is real. You say he isn't and that the Bible proves he isn't. That makes no sense. That aside, I know personally that God is real, that he lives and is divine. And I don't know that from reading or hearing or reasoning about God. I know it from the visitation of his spirit and from nothing else...right out of the blue. As an example of my ignorance of God at the time, I thought the manger scenes at Christmas with a virgin holding a baby was just a pretty idea, purity holding innocence, to make the holiday special.

 

It is. A study of the nativity stories show they are cobbled together by Matthew and Luke.

 

I meant that to prove that my testimony isn't built on the religion of traditional Christianity. And if Gods spirit can conceive himself in me, to know that my true life is in him rather than in myself or my life alone. Then it can cause a virgin to conceive in her womb unknown by man.

 

So then you actually believe the story. There's enough errors and outright misinterpretation of scripture by 'Matthew' to question the intention of writing the story. He and Luke obviously did not meet to discuss the subject.

 

In case anybody is still interested about Caesar Augustus, the 'census', and the 'tax':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censu...In order to install an,out a census in Judaea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_ancient_Rome#Collection_and_management

Look... Christians are never going to convince atheists of anything -- period.

Atheists believe that all of this whole thing we call the "universe" just kind of popped out of nowhere on its own, and that you are born, you live, and you die, and that's it.

So, even though the history we have is often inexact, incomplete, and distorted to fit the subjective preferences of those who interpret it, we should do our best to use the best 'evidence' in constructing our various arguments.

 

Raw meat may be good for a lion. But eating raw meat will not make you a lion. Similarly, scriptures may be good for the man of God. But consuming scriptures do not make you a man of God. One must first be either a lion or a man of God. Otherwise it is vanity and role playing. Scriptures are Gods servants speaking to his congregation. We cannot fancy ourselves members of the congregation or critics of things not ours to assume simply by our having eavesdropped on the matter or having read of it, without making it gossip or gossip about gossip. One can only know what one knows.

 

Can I ask you a simple question? Are you a Temple Mormon? Have you pledged not to reveal it's secrets on the penalty of having your throat cut our to be disemboweled? Perhaps that is a higher level of Mormonism because I have known many that have not been introduced to that. How 'bout the undergarment? Jesus said we were to becme as children but it seems Mormonism demands a whole lot more!

 

Facts about your faith? You proclaimed earlier that mankind reproduces instinctively but has "human restraint".I addressed this thing you call "human restraint" but you ignore it. Why is that? Is it something you cannot see feel or touch? Something you cannot explain scientifically? Your faith is very limited and dare I say "strange". You sound as though you think in your own mind you have the power to know right and wrong as you judge how the world should be orchestrated. Would you, as God, deny individuals their sovereignty and impose your desires on every individual? If you made everyone to obey your wishes where would you find a love that reciprocates?
I have stated some questions that you might answer with your facts. That would really be interesting.

 

Human restraint is that learned in your upbringing and society. It is not inherited. I certainly know what is right and wrong for me.
I sound...... could simply be your way of thinking of me. I have no wish that people should live as I do. That would be boring. Each to his own within the law. My faith? I have no religious faith. I have a 'code/way' I live my life by. You only have to see the way religion works in the world to question Why religion? From ' love your neighbour as yourself' to 'kill infidels'. For 'Christians' to support a mountebank like Trump and claim to be godloving. Similarities are in most religions - as opposed to philosophies.

You criticised my post regarding Luke's Nativity story but you haven't told me where I am wrong.

 

No I haven't been to the Temple yet. But if and when I do, I will abide the covenant. I never heard of the death penalty for revealing Temple secrets. And I've never heard of anyone dying, in spite of the plethora of online apostates criticizing everything about the Church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints isn't another Bible based denomination of traditional Christianity. It was restored by God and his angels thru Joseph Smith. That's why it differs so greatly from tradition. It does not spring from tradition. It does not follow the blueprint of mans tradition. Where traditional Christianity is tens of thousands of differing denominations with their own Christs and gospels according to their interpretations of the Bible. The LDS Church stands alone with one Christ and one gospel. Where traditional Christianity is collectively a discordant chorus, the LDS Church is singular. It differs from all of them in origin, doctrine, and practice. What that fourteen year old farm boy boy did is amazing. And its amazing because it is Gods work. One can hate it, but what's the motivation for that hatred, if not the evil in ones own heart. Being driven by evil to hate someone or some institution does not make the object of ones hatred evil or worthy of being hated. Examine the spirit and ask yourself, what am I doing. The LDS Church has two books testifying of Jesus Christ, the Holy Bible and the Book of Mormon. Jesus Christ said where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst. Think about it.

 

Well I suggest you read "Out of Mormonism " by Judy Robertson. She and her husband were friends of mine. He has died and I lost touch with her. In Judy's book she describes exactly the secret ceremony you will go through. You may hate the book, but you will remember her account. Judy is an honest to goodness follower of Jesus. She and Jim were raised in Christian CHurches but she admitted her Bible knowledge was not that great. However, she began to realize, the secret ceremonies she went through gave her the creeps even with her limited Bible knowledge.
Having read my Bible for the last fifty years and still learning from it every day, I can't even imagine why anyone would need more books, secret ceremonies, secret undergarments etc.
Denominational Christians have had their problems. Petty differences. But within all of them and Bible Churches included, lyes the Body of Christ. Different parts to the same Body. We do strive for unity however but that unity must be out of our love for one another.
On the other hand, LDS keeps incredible unity among it's minions. Salt Lake dispenses the weekly sermon that must be followed worldwide. They also track their members finances and let them know what they are expected to pay. If you don't know this stuff, you'll find out! Lot of control with LDS! Just keep your eyes open and remember, Jesus wants you back!

 

Yeah, you have your own truth. There can only be ONE TRUTH, not 3 billion truths. Maybe that is why you cannot accept God or the provision he has made for you.

 

A lot of people have left the LDS Church over the years. Many others join. A lot of Jesus's followers left him too. As for me, I never left to have to return.

 

And you have your own truth. Who is right?

I've shown you the errors in the Nativity stories regarding the birth of the Jewish Preacher called Jesus. The chaos in Luke's story, the contradictions in Matthew's and the contradictions between the two are enough to convince me they are simply made up. In addition neither under Roman Census laws or Jewish regulations was Mary required to go to Bethlehem. Weaning mothers and pregnant women were respected and expected to stay at home/village even for the important Passover feast.

A study outside the Bible is helpful.