What a load of BS... 1995 January: A bomb goes of at a Sikh newspaper office in London, killing the editor. 1994 27 July: A car-bomb goes off outside Balfour House in London, home to a Jewish charity, injuring five. 1994 July: A car-bomb goes off outside the Israeli embassy in London, injuring fourteen. 1982 June: Abu Nidal kills the Israeli ambassador in London. 1980 30 April: The Iranian Embassy Siege where a six-man terrorist team held the building for six days until the hostages were rescued by a raid by the SAS which was broadcast live on TV. 1972, 19 September: The group Black September post a letter bomb to the Israeli embassy in London killing an Israeli diplomat. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103 (Ironic/sad that you're Scottish) https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/mi5-history/mi5-today/the-rise-of-the-islamist-terrorist-threat.html Liar.
Where did I claim that? I just read it--the Koran, no supposed "Islamaphobic websites"--it speaks for itself. I'm asking for explanation and getting none. Do you want to try? I have not been disrespectful to the religion at all. I HAVE asked for explanations of the Holy Text of Islam. Explain it, please. Otherwise...what it says is what it says, and it's not flattering to the religion.
Foreign embassies are not considered to be a part of the UK. Sikhs are not Muslims. Pam-Am flight 103 was not a British flight. In any case, it must have taken you a while to pick through the massive amount of ''Christian terrorist attacks'' in the UK, to find those few examples in wiki. Dusty
Sigh! OJLeb has already answered all of your questions. You will find them in the parts of her posts that you have ignored. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Dusty
Here's why there was no Islamic terrorism before it actually did start. In GB or anywhere else you'd care to mention except countries that are already majority Muslim. And even some of THEM suffer Islamic terrorism. [video=youtube;VEXWjlgJ83E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXWjlgJ83E&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]
What made these "Islamic terrorism" though? Surely you are not ignorant of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, are you? As for the Sikh newspaper bombing, I couldn't find anything on that either, so please do explain how this is an act of "Islamic terrorism." Again, there is no reason to suggest this was "Islamic terrorism" at all. Even read the "Alleged Motives" part of the Wikipedia page. Terrorism is a political concept with political gains, just because a Muslim commits an act of terrorism does not mean it was religious in nature. To suggest otherwise is quite ignorant of world politics. Ah, the MI5... You are aware the MI5 has quite a history with the man responsible for the London beheading, yes? smh...
Okay, I will say this once. This is becoming a waste of my time, and if you will not even take the time to reply to my entire posts, I will not take the time to reply to you. I have no patience for people who twist words like you have been doing since the beginning... Haha, I'm sure you did... yet the fact you claim those verses allow for the killing of non-Muslims simply for not believing proves otherwise. lol and you read half of it, huh? As do I! http://quran.com Haha, what? How tolerant of you, I am sure Isa (peace be upon him) would be so proud of you. The entire Surah? Or a specific part? Here, this is what my Quran says about Surah al-Anfal (you didn't just look at the title of it, "Spoils of War," and assume it was something bad, did you?) "In this chapter we have the lessons of the Battle of Badr enforced in their larger aspects: (1) the question of war booty; (2) the true virtues necessary for fighting the good fight; (3) victory against odds; (4) clemency and consideration for one's own and for others in the hour of victory. As regards booty taken in battle, the first point to note is that that should never be our sole aim in war. It is only an accidental circumstance, a sort of windfall. Secondly, no soldier or troop has any prior right to it. A righteous war is a community affair, and any accessions resulting from it belong to Allah. Thirdly, certain equitable principles of division should be laid down to check human greed and selfishness. A fifth share goes to the Imam; and he can use it at his discretion; for his own expenses, and for the relief of the poor and suffering, and the orphans and widows (viii. 41). The remainder was divided, according to the Prophet's practice, not only among those who were actually in the fight physically, but all who were in the enterprise, young and old, provided they loyally did some duty assigned to them. Fourthly, there should be no disputes, as they interfere with internal discipline and harmony. As regards the military virtues, which are the types of virtues throughout life, we are shown by an analysis of the incidents of Badr how against the greatest odds, Allah's help will give the victory if men are fighting not for themselves but for the sacred Cause of Allah. And directions are given for the treatment of prisoners and for maintaining the solidarity of the Muslim community. The date of this Sura is shortly after the Battle of Badr, which was fought on Friday, the 17th of Ramadhan in the second year of Hijra. A short account of the battle is given in n. 352 to iii. 13. Summary.-All booty is really at the disposal of Allah's Messenger under directions from Allah. Men of faith accept and obey these directions with cheerfulness. Victor and the prize of victory come from Allah, as was proved at Badr (viii. 1-19). Obedience and intelligent discipline, zeal, faith, and gratitude from Allah, are the true passports to success and protection from the assaults of evil. Evil will be piled up with evil and destroyed (viii. 20-37). The battle of Badr was a testing time, and showed how virtue and valour can conquer against odds. Steadfastness and obedience; faith, courage, and fearlessness: due preparation and free expenditure of resources and energy:-these are expected from you by Allah, and His help is all-sufficient (viii. 38-64.) Even tenfold odds against you do not count if you are fighting for truth and faith against enemies of truth and faith; but remember clemency and consideration in the hour of victory (vii. 65-75.)" Is that a sufficient explanation? A motive gives somebody a reason to act, a justification defends the motive. Not at all. From somebody who has [claims] to have read the Quran yet did not understand what it was they read, I don't think you are in any position to say something like that without providing proof. Correct me if I am wrong here? Haha... It's not talking about a women. The word hamstrung is used when talking about what the Thamud tribe did to the she-camel to defy the warnings of Allah SWT from Salih (peace be upon him)... http://quran.com/search?q=hamstrung Haha... If this was a significant amount the world would be in chaos right now. Less than 1% of the Ummah are members of al-Qaida or other extremist groups. Definitions of Motive: 1 : something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act 2 : a recurrent phrase or figure that is developed through the course of a musical composition Definitions of Justify: 1 a : to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable b (1) : to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2) : to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property 2 a archaic : to administer justice to b archaic : absolve c : to judge, regard, or treat as righteous and worthy of salvation 3 a : to space (as lines of text) so that the lines come out even at the margin b : to make even by justifying <justified margins> Well, his justification with the murder did a terrible job of justifying what he did.... Likely because it was not justifiable? Nonetheless, much of what he said about the British government and the Middle East as true. If he expressed this in a less illegal way, then there would be no question about it. Now we find out he has had a past with the British intelligence agencies over the years... It's not as black-and-white as "He did it because he is a Muslim" and sorry but I will not just stay quiet as people try to claim this. I never said he was justified in what he did though. His speech doesn't justify anything, however it was correct on some points. The really ironic, and sad thing, is that if you were not selectively quoting my posts, you would see I was not asking you the question... Allow me to refresh your memory... As you can see, I wasn't asking the question to you again. But I guess when you twist others words/posts, it can get quite confusing, huh?
Yet your list of verses matches all of them, as does your understanding of the verses, or lack thereof. Patience. Saying the Quran is filled with "crap" and is "schizophrenic" is quite disrespectful. And considering it is the Holy Scripture of Islam... well... disrespecting the Quran is like disrespecting Islam.
I've seen this video before... It just lists countries with Muslim populations, with some girl speaking in the background, and showing random pictures. Europe has a population of 6% Muslim. Yet the protests in Europe are mostly related to the economic situations in certain countries... No mass protests for Halal food... Where are these threats? Canada has almost a 3% Muslim population, yet Muslims aren't considered a threat to other citizens. But, we do have Halal shops in Canada and we are under 5%... Uh oh... And not even all Muslim-majority countries have Sharia, so how can Sharia be imposed on any European country with only 5% of the population being Muslims? lol... Oh right, the Sharia courts that are established are for family/personal matters only. Like the Jewish Beth Din courts which have been established before any Westerners even knew what Sharia was. And with far less of a population percentage. But OMG the world population is nearly 1/4 Muslim, so um... Yeah, where is all this chaos around the world? Oh no, are we doing it wrong?
And exactly how many embassies has Israeli car-bombed in London? how many hostages? Gimme a break. It's unsolved. It may not be....but then again... who knows. Regardless, it was completely false to claim there was no Islamic terrorism in the UK until after 2001. So you're in agreement with the video posted by Pregnar Kraps? I doubt you really want to do that, but you are indeed saying Islam is more than simply a religion. Yeah...pretty pathetic work.
It's silly to expect every word to be responded to. First of all--it would turn into a BOOK. Second--not everything is worthy of response. And, Third--I ran out of time and had RL get in the way. So...'scuse me.. Frankly, this is just BS--I have held your feet to the fire, not twisted your words. Your answers are not complete and they are not specific for the most part, so stop with the lame "twist your words" crap. Just because I don't accept some of your responses as fruitful or relevant to the point I am getting at doesn't not mean I am misrepresenting what you're saying. I have asked for your clarification--you have not provided it as yet. Well--believe it or don't, but I did indeed read them in context--and a WHOLE BUNCH of the rest of the Koran. Hense the comment on it's contradictory nature. I have not received any "training" in the supposed Koranic interpretations so my analysis of what it says comes from my training in literary analysis and the Koran itself minus any religious hermeneutic. In short, I'm going on what the Koran ACTUALLY says, not what is said about what it says. At least. I've read all of it some time back. There is also a lot of stuff that re-iterates OT Abrahamic and Mosaic histories but with a different perspective than is in the Bible. If I delete this and don't comment on it, am I "not responding to your whole post? Must I comment on this snideness as well? The entire thing....And actually, I didn't realize it was called that until after I had read what was in it and was posting to you. I used your translation as I was reading last night, and it doesn't call it "Spoils of War." I DON"T CARE what your Koran says about it--I was asking for YOUR exegesis. I don't want to hear your "party-line." No. Because it is "party-line." How do YOU read such things as http://quran.com/8/12 and http://quran.com/8/65 ? Sure. A motive is the reason for acting. motive = reason. And justification does indeed defend the motive. Still makes me ask HOW can you logically agree with a justification for murder and disagree with the murder? If it's "justified" then it is a justifiable homicide. Is that supposed to make some sort of sense? Now you agree with the justification, but it isn't justified? What does that mean??? This is where you accuse me of twisting your words--NO. You words are not making SENSE. In my attempt to make sense of senselessness, you then accuse me of twisting. How about you answer the question "HOW can you logically agree with a justification for murder and disagree with the murder? If it's "justified" then it is a justifiable homicide. I would normally delete this and not bother answering it because it's silly--I already gave you a list of verses that specifically address this. Why waste the time doing it again? This one I did read out of context. After reading so much of the violence in the Koran, I wanted to see how often "kill" was stated in it, so I did a search on it and looked specifically at many of the surahs that came back in the search. In some cases, the citation had "kill" in it, but the version of the Koran you are using used "hamstrung" and indeed the two where the translation was changed did refer to a she-camel. However, elsewhere it also changed "killed" to "slaughtered" or "stone" or eliminated it completely as in Surah 2:58...What is the deal with that? WELL! that's saying a lot about your own faith! Also--some (like myself) believe it IS in significant chaos right now. What group did that Woolwich hacker belong to? What group did the Boston bombers belong to? What group did the Fort Hood Shooter belong to? I'm just deleting the dictionary definitions.....I answered it above and it's silly to take up so much bandwidth... From what I can see he was asked to spy for them 6 months ago and he declined. That's not exactly "over the years." In his mind it did, and he justified it with the Koran. How do you read the Koran differently--he cited a surah--how do you read it DIFFERENTLY? Like what? Whoops...I did it again....
Well...maybe there is something to it, then. I only used the Koran and did not use any anti-islam sites. I just read it. If there is similarity among lists of verses, perhaps it's the content of the verses. Still waiting.... Okay...I apologize for the word choice. What is your explanation for the way many surahs will make a statement and then immediately negate that statement...and then sometimes re-state the original position?
How many Palestinian embassies are there in London? And they have about 1 million hostages in Gaza alone. Gimme a break indeed. None of those examples were Islamic terrorism though. Unsolved or not. What?? By saying that not every act of terror by a Muslim is Islamic, I am agreeing with the video I already responded too? Yeah, I think I am done here.
Yes, there is something to it. Anybody can twist verses of the Quran (or the Torah, or the Bible) to make it say whatever they want. To suggest the anti-Islamic websites have any credibility here is laughable. Well you did totally emit the explanation, oh except for a few words from it. Like Dusty said: "As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." It doesn't do that though. Really, why say to reading something when you clearly had no idea what you were reading? If you don't understand that is fine, but to totally ignore when it is explained to you and then ask for an explanation is well, trolling.
Bombing embassies is not terrorism? WTH??? Are you still arguing that somehow you can separate the motive from the justification for action? Are you Muslim but not Islamic (as in the religion of Islam)?
You're not addressing the fact of what the surahs state. You're spouting offense without substance. You're not EXPLAINING anything in the Koran. You're simply saying over and over that I (and others) just don't understand. Well......explain it, then.
If I may; The Quran was revealed over a period of time. Years. The revelation changed society as a whole. The commandments came in sequence. For ex. Wine wasn't prohibited at first. At first the Muslims were told not to pray will intoxicated. This broke them away from drinking. Than they were told not to drink at all. The Quran is full of commandments. Some for that specific time, some for all time, some for a single person or group, some for all. That is why we rely on Jurist to teach us what we must do in what time.
Obviously you are trolling now... Khalas, I'm finished here. My point has been made, and that is enough for me. You are no longer worth the time. One last reply, and then I'm finished. Nonsense. You ran out of time during every one of my replies, yet had enough time to read half of the Quran? Haram... you aren't even trying anymore. Nothing like a self-declared victory, huh? Easy to say when you ignore the answers lol I have provided it half a dozen times. I've repeated myself far too much in this discussion. I'll let your posts about the Quran speak for themselves. Anybody can accomplish anything on these forums, lol.... But when their posts saay otherwise, well I tend to believe that instead. I have not had any Quranic classes myself, it is pretty straight forward when you read it. If a 19 year old can understand it, what is your excuse? You are trying to understand a book without any context about what you are reading. Fantastic. [quot][At least. I've read all of it some time back. There is also a lot of stuff that re-iterates OT Abrahamic and Mosaic histories but with a different perspective than is in the Bible.[/quote] Yet you didn't understand anything you read. And from this post, you don't care that you don't understand it. As if just reading it is an accomplishment or something. That is some kind of ignorance. You are so stubborn, wow.... http://quran.com/8 Surat Al-'Anfāl (The Spoils of War) - سورة الأنفال You did link to verses in that Surah, did you not? Ya haram... this might be something you take pride in, but I prefer to use credible and educated sources. What the Quran says is what I think, you simply ignore any evidence or explanation I have given you in this entire discussion and it is not hard to notice that. The explanation of the Surah was not a party line. You see, people study the Quran as a career choice, and they do very extensive studies. Because you lack understanding and seem to choose to be that way, does not mean that the commentary in my Quran is wrong. The excerpt I copied into the post, which you *shockingly* totally ignored, explains the Surah. If you choose to ignore it, well so be it. I've already answered this......................... Oh my... "Well, his justification with the murder did a terrible job of justifying what he did.... Likely because it was not justifiable? Nonetheless, much of what he said about the British government and the Middle East as true. If he expressed this in a less illegal way, then there would be no question about it." See above. I mean, I've said it a dozen times. No more. All of it you took out of context Because when translating to English, Arabic words have multiple meanings. I don't know if you are intentionally being stubborn or not. That's cute... What's wrong, did the teenager working the MacDonalds drive thru forget to give you your french fries? The world is not in chaos, not even close. The Middle East is as close to that as it gets, and that is because of an endless supply of foreign meddling and Arab political corruption. They didn't belong to any group. What group did McVeigh belong to? What group did Adam Lanza belong to? What group did Bruce Ivins belong to? They've been harassing him and his family for the past two years, according to them. Obviously he felt he justified it. In my opinion, it wasn't a sufficient justification and the verse he referred to (fight those who fight you) is not a valid reason because Rigby did not attack him. I don't read it differently, I see the situation differently, but that does not make a difference now does it? The verse also says in full, fight those who fight you but do not transgress limits for Allah loves not the transgressors. Surely he transgressed limits by beheading the man in the public. "Well, his justification with the murder did a terrible job of justifying what he did.... Likely because it was not justifiable? Nonetheless, much of what he said about the British government and the Middle East as true. If he expressed this in a less illegal way, then there would be no question about it." I love how you do it for entertainment now, really this discussion has been one big waste of time. Thank you for that. Now, to get this thread back on track. - - - Updated - - - Asalaamu 'alaykum brother
You may, but look back through the past few pages. You will unfortunately be wasting your time. Nonetheless, good luck. I find it amazing how people will actually refuse to acknowledge that the Quran has very significant historical context in it. As you said, it was revealed in a span of 2 decades through times of peace and times of war. To think that the verses about times of war actually abrogate the verses about times of peace during times of peace makes no sense.
When the earth is shaken to her (utmost) convulsion, And the earth throws up her burdens (from within), And man cries (distressed): 'What is the matter with her?'- On that Day will she declare her tidings: For that thy Lord will have given her inspiration.
YES...It does... Here is an example: http://quran.com/5/32 From Cain and Abel, apparently, one should know that killing is wrong, but the “Children of Israel” still transgressed. http://quran.com/5/51 And so they deserved to be crucified, have their hands and feet cut off, be exiled, and cast into Hell. http://quran.com/5/34 BUT….they can repent...if they do it before believers get ahold of them… http://quran.com/5/36 http://quran.com/5/38 EXCEPT...don’t believe them if they try to pay with money… And even those that do get their hands chopped off as a deterrent CAN still repent…. http://quran.com/5/40 Because...you know...Allah can do what he wants… BUT YOU KNOW WHAT….??? http://quran.com/5/41 DON’T BELIEVE THEM….because Jews are liars and are just stirring up trouble. Allah doesn’t really want them and does not intend to “purify their hearts.” http://quran.com/5/43 And another reason you can’t believe lying Jews is because they have the Torah and don’t read THAT right…. http://quran.com/5/46 And those Christians...they screwed up the real message of Jesus… http://quran.com/5/48 So really, Allah DOESN’T want you believers to listen to or accept any Jew or Christian since they messed up the message...OBVIOUSLY Allah WANTS discord among these people… http://quran.com/5/51 So…..Nevermind all that stuff I said before….Those who are wrong really CAN’T repent, even if Allah wants them to because he really doesn’t want them to. And if you associate with them, you are also one of them (and all that stuff also applies to YOU). Please correct any misreading here. It goes back and forth and finally denies the whole concept it began with. This is why I called it "schizophrenic"--I did not mean it insultingly, but rather as an attempt to capture how the thought process of the reasoning jumps all over the place and is overtly contradictory. Please....try to untangle that group of verses in Surah 5 so that it does not self contradict.
I only read a few snippets of the Quran, so I think I shall go back and read the whole thing so I can effectively discuss it. However, I must say I was disturbed by many of the things I did read - I shall go back and reread it completely to make sure I have it right but this is what I did get out of it, to my memory: - gays are immoral and inherently sinful - women should be submissive to their husbands - Jesus was a liar - in effect, 'death to non-muslims' - lots of ass-kissing for God
Transcript: “The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers. And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you until you leave us alone. So what if we want to live by the Shari’a in Muslim lands? Why does that mean you must follow us and chase us and call us extremists and kill us? Rather you lot are extreme.You are the ones that when you drop a bomb you think it hits one person? Or rather your bomb wipes out a whole family? This is the reality. By Allah if I saw your mother today with a buggy I would help her up the stairs. This is my nature. But we are forced by the Qur’an, in Sura At-Tawba, through many ayah in the Qu’ran, we must fight them as they fight us. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don’t care about you. You think David Cameron is going to get caught in the street when we start busting our guns? You think politicians are going to die? No, it’s going to be the average guy, like you and your children. So get rid of them. Tell them to bring our troops back so can all live in peace. So leave our lands and we can all live in peace. That’s all I have to say. [in Arabic:] Allah’s peace and blessings be upon you.” So the above BOLD parts.....you agree with all of that?
