Israeli soldiers manhandle EU diplomats seeking to aid demolishedPalestinian village

ALL OF IT Edit/Off topic/Stop the name calling.

This is the Land of Israel and no UN or any group where the majority of Muslims reign supreme are going to dictate our life and our livelyhood...

We do what we want in our Land exactly like your host country has nothing to do in Ireland and the Malvinas.

 

The only ones that needs to be taken behind the woodshed are all the anti Semites here led by KK.
The Dog Avatar is a LIAR and I have proven that, with pictures and a VIDEO... the followers are just a bunch of <airheads> following a piper.

 

What is the use of your silly exercise????????????????????????????????????
We are here we are 8 Millions today and the Arabs 20% ONLY!!!!!!!!!! Take that to the Bank!!!

 

.......

The thread is not about you Jack.

 

Don't forget it.

Now.

Topic?

 

Your quiver is still empty, HB.
Your posts are either off-topic or name-calling or just plain ranting, or the occasional irrelevant cut-and-paste of a video with nothing to do with the quote that it was attached to, or is a sppech by a charlatan who cannot read the words of the Mandate for Palestine.

The MYTHs are crumbling …. By the hour

 

Then perhaps you can be fair and say there is no reason to say "most" of the Jews migrated out of Judea or converted at that time? enough to say we know some did.

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I know it applies to Jeruslaem mainly, that's what I said in my post, you said ALL jews were exiled and I said only from some parts the revolted, Im afraid I can't sort numbers thousands of years old...., someone, either the scholars of today or of old made a calculation mistake, both however agree that the Romans did kill, enslave and exiled the Jews even if in diffrent numbers. so they were exiled...

Like I said I can't sort numbers thousands of years old...., but in 200 years distance between 70CE and 300CE I think reaching from 50% (as scholars estimated - not sure) to 55-65% of all pop even after exile is feasable considering you dont have I.D border check entering Judea, only the enslaved had no freedom of movement, to diffrenate from tha last exile in Emporer Hadrian days, he destroyed all worship entirly so there was nothing to return to.

Yes, it also speaks on the highest concentration of troops in Judea considering it was not a frontier province and the troops reign of terror:

It speaks of Elite driving away from Judaism but:

Once again, the text relates to the period before "Aelia Capitolina" which means before the great final exile, the text you read explins the realations between the Jews and the Romans and states:

The text talk about the implications on the destruction of the Temple and that the claim that Judaism was a "religio Licita" - tolerated religion - must be reviewed!

So far all I read is about the force the Roamns used against the Jewish practices while some did indeed convert from Judaism (which btw bedunkes dumb arguments that Jews are not "real" Jews but convertes themselves since persecution stated since 70CE) but to say it was without pressure???,

Not lack of info but "Was this true also in the second and third centuries, when the evidence is both sparser and more ambiguous? It may be hoped that a full surface survey of the sort conducted in the late 1960s in other parts of the country will help to answer at least the question of population size, if not the far more complicated question of ethnicity. Indeed, scattered excavation has shown that in some areas population grew in the second and third centuries, but this does not mean that a similar pattern obtained throughout Galilee."

Less evidance but not none, in any case why hang the Diaspora event on that? dont you think the Archelogical evidence in Rome for example on Jewish cummunitties make much more of an evidence then "less" evidence on Judea pop in the 2nd-3rd century ??

Wasnt so hard if you look at the bigger picture, what you did is focus on a sentance and if it didnt make sense back and forth you threw away the book....., that not objective learning, that's searching for a point you nade before even reading the book.


So, since the only point you seem to have are diffrent numbers between modern and ancient scholars on the dimentions of the Diaspora - while both agree its was catastrophic to the Jews and the province "felt" it,

That's about 300 years of decline due to population drop.

The evidence you supplied and in fact ALL world scholars agree that there was a Jewish Diaspora and it was devestating to Judea.

 

Care to explain those comments. Pal.

 

You just cannot see it, can ya?

Everyone outwith your bubble of existence can see it.

But I have come to realise that you cannot, or will not. Psychologically, this does not surprise me, given that a rigid and narrow world view is often met with an angry sense of siege mentality, when that which it has been raised to believe feels threatened by the 'outside world'.

You cannot see that Jews are the LAST people on the planet bar NONE, with no exceptions to this ANYWHERE, that should ever speak of any other group of people ANYWHERE - 'whining'.

But you cannot see it, and you are not alone there, I think this is what effects you people as a collective.

We saw another example of it just recently, when one of your 'people' had the nerve to make those Hiroshima remarks.

Again. As a collective, you either cannot see the staggering and jaw dropping disconnect here, or worse, you do see it and choose to go on with it anyway.

 

We were discussing the Hellenistic diaspora in the case that you quote above. The references say that more Jews lived in the diaspora than lived in Palestine. That justifies my use of &#8220;MOST&#8221;. It seems that you disagree as to the meaning of &#8216;more&#8217;.So MOST of the Jews in the Hellenic period lived outside of Palestine BY CHOICE, just as they do today.

Good, so you and I agree that the great expulsion of the Jews from Palestine in the aftermath of 70 CE, as claimed in the references that I provided to you, is nonsense. In fact you have already acknowledged that the VirtualJewishLibrary was in error.

Where did I say that ALL Jews were exiled!!?? My point was exactly the opposite. Why do I sense a fat wriggle going on here??

What I did was to provide access to what is probably (according to its Web Counter) the most widely used online reference on Jewish historical matters &#8211; JewishVirtualLibrary &#8211; and pointed out that THEY claimed &#8216;ALL&#8217; and that THEY were wrong.

Agreed &#8230; and as you understand exactly as I do, we have no idea how many, nor what % of the population. But that is irrelevant because you have already agreed that there was no mass expulsion of Jews from Palestine in the aftermath of "70 CE".

I agree. So the numbers show that there was an INCREASE in Jews from the time of Christ to the 3rdC and not a massive contribution to the existing diaspora &#8230; 50% to perhaps 65% is what you have suggested. So of course some Jews would have left after the &#8216;disaster&#8217; but their numbers made little impact on the growth = yet further confirmation of no major increase to the existing large diapora.

I have little interest on the time relation to the declaration of &#8220;Aelia Capitolina". What I know for sure is that the text states that, as a result of &#8220;the great destruction&#8221;, the Romans believed that they had "stamped out Judaism" but, as I wrote, again there is zero mention made that this was due to a &#8216;massive expulsion&#8217; of Jews by the Romans after the 70CE revolt. By now we REALLY should be in agreement on this impressive aligning of available facts.

So I continue to believe that there was no &#8220;driving the Jews out of Palestine&#8221; by the Romans; out of Jerusalem, yes. That it became much more difficult to live in their ancestral lands as a Jew, I have no doubt; that there was pressure on them, indeed. That this probably caused some to move out of Palestine, presumably. But equally presumably, for those who wished to continue to live in their Mother land, it pointed to a need to &#8220;lose their Jewishness&#8221;. I believe that Ben-Gurion wrote exactly this in his joint 1908 book &#8211; he used it to show just how much the Jews loved their land.

I have no reason to believe that a major unrecorded exile from Palestine gave rise to the growth of the Jewish population in Rome. If, as in the Hellenistic period, the motivation to live in the diaspora was the &#8220;draw of commerce and trade&#8221;, then that existing diaspora with more Jews than lived in Palestine, could easily have fuelled a move of some from (say - Alexandria and Antioch) to Rome, the new centre of power and commerce in the civilised world. And that is supported by the fact that the greatest Jewish city in the world today is New York, interestingly the centre of (power and) commerce in today's world. Coincidence, Gilos?

Absolute nonsense!! I could not find evidence for a serious 70CE expulsion, and neither have you been able to.
Threw the book away!!! I have only just found it and I continue to read it. Please stop this kind of POV nonsense.

You are twisting the words of that fabulous source of Jewish history that I provided you with. It shows nothing of the sort. The great diapora already existed long before the invasion of Palestine by the Romans, and it was a voluntary diaspora, just like that of today. What the volume clearly states is that the destruction of Jerusalem was disastrous. And now I would REALLY like to know where on earth did you find that the (pre-existing majo)r diaspora, which had NOTHING to do with the 70 CE events, was &#8220;catastrophic to the Jews&#8221;. I am now challenging (1) you to justify that statement. That is like stating that the 2013 diaspora is devastating to Israel. Utter thumb-sucked nonsense by you, Gilos. Very poor form.

Here I present you with a second challenge (2). What data do you have that shows that the loss of Jewish dominance (%) in the population was due to &#8220;population drop&#8221; and not to the reason which the Cambridge reference provides, namely conversion by Jews to Hellenic paganism or to Christianity?

Lastly, thank you for allowing me to help you by providing you with a decent source of information. Your appreciation thanks were most kind.

 

Show me where your refernce states that please , give a quote, the only thing I found frm your source is the Jews of the time migrated out willingly, not a word on amount.

There were TWO expulsions after 70 ce, onl the last was a killing blow, so no its not nonsense, you simply read what you want to read.

You said you used to think like that then you had a "revelation of truth", I said it was known all along..., as for "the most widely used online reference on Jewish historical matters" - I really dont know about that, I never heard about that site before coming to this forum, it doesnt look to me very covering/serious/academic at all, its more like "Judaism in 5 min". and for that purpose I fairly reasonable, but not for deep discussions.

Once again, there was the great revolt in 70 ce that ended with the destruction of the Temple, that destruction had such an effect that it changed Judaism, there was another in 132–136 CE which ended with outlawing Judaism, that was a death blow. 2 expulsions in 2 diffrent events, both sources of ancient and modern time agree it was devestating to the Jews, all I said was that in the first revolt at 70 ce the expulsion was limited, I said nothing about the 136 ce revolt but if Judaism was outlawed you can imagine the death toll and slavery were higher than ever before since it was never done.

You cant make any assumptions on quantity when no number are supplied, for example if majority is just 55% in regard to what was once 80% (?) then the expulsion was of nearly 1/3 of the pop, every 3rd person is ALOT, these prove the Diaspora was fairly large.

You are set on numbers and Im set on principle, it was the Roman destruction that put so many in exile, the fact there were alredy many that lived in exile doesnt diminsh from the devestation effect it had in Judea, besides Jerusalem, Judaism was outlawed for a period of time and persecuted by the Romans.

It did'nt "rise", it was there and it wasnt there before the Romans conqured Judea and put many on exile - and you agree that they did,

There were times during the Helenistic era that reltaions were good and many converted or chose the Helenic-Jewish lives (early seculars?), but Antiochus IV Epiphanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes) did persecute Jews and Jews did revolt so you cant just look at the converted and state "that is all there's to it", the majurity opposed them and the result was an indipendant state for 100~ years, so all was not "well" in those relations.

You keep denying the Roman exile when the text keep providing proves to it:

Its obvious it changed BECAUSE of the failed revoult and not because a new oil rig was being built in Greece and was looking for employees.

Once again refers to exiled/slavery Jews as punishment for the Bar Kochva rebalion in 136 CE, the Romans did this not some " major unrecorded exile" as you put it...its all very recorded.

The text speaks of sevral expulsions since 70CE and they were all significant as they changed the demographics in Judea, I posted the qutes from the text , p36-37. you seem to cling to "much but no all" as "not serious" and can't understand that...

No KK, you are twisting, the discussion was wether there was a Jewish Diaspora not who caused/started it, you and Jack denied it/ said it was too little to mention. it was the Assyrians that first conqured Israel kingdom and started the exoulsion of Jews and that was anything but " voluntary ", that was said only once in Helenistic era and even then you didnt provide numbers that proved Helenitic Jews in greater numbers left Judea, only that some did, you then denied Romans have put Jews in exile enough to be worth mentioning even thou the text states it was devestating and changed demographics - meaning alot of % changes. you then add Arch finds of the area and discover a great Diaspora in Asia minor, Rome, Egypt, Lybia and ofc Babylon. I agree some existed before the Romans but the Roman exile still happened and it was still devestating to Judea so you cant name the other conquests/exiles and disregard the Romans, that's simply lying to yourself....


I said that there was a Jewish Diaspora - To counter the original argument you and Jack had that there wasnt any or not enough to mention, this argument is what started this discussion so I thought its worth mentioning since its obviously - NOT TRUE

And I said it was devestating to Judea, meaning the events that caused it, not just the Romans and not the ppl that lived in the Diaspora themselves, the events that cause the Diaspora where the events that destroyed the Kingdom and relgion center of Judaism and neraly brought an end to the Jewish ppl, that was devestating.

I quoted Cambridge in that text so if you agree that's my claim then its Cambridge claim...., here again:

That's pp 36-37 in Cambridge, there was a pop drop not mass conversion right after the reballion which matches the Historian of the time records of what happened even if the exact numbers are debated.

 

Gilos.

Post 133 since you're on.

 

The Romans never forcibly relocated any conquered people..........

 

They had special treatment to the Jews for the amount of trouble they brought them, so many revolts, one actually defeated the regional garrison and the Roamns had to bring legions from Britain to re-conquer Judea, then more and more revolts. at last they tried to destroy Judaism and outlawed it, read the later posts and read throu the links for evidence

- - - Updated - - -

They had special treatment to the Jews for the amount of trouble they brought them, so many revolts, one actually defeated the regional garrison and the Roamns had to bring legions from Britain to re-conquer Judea, then more and more revolts. at last they tried to destroy Judaism and outlawed it, read the later posts and read throu the links for evidence

 

You mean the garrison in Syria????

Are you talking about Vespasian and Titus?

 

Bar Kochva around 135 CE, after Titus,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

There were more reballions after that as well, some made while in exile.

 

Betar sounded familiar.. It was a village.. wasn't it?

In a Baraitha it has been taught: 'For seven years [after the massacre at Beitar] the gentiles fertilized their vineyards with the blood of Israel without using manure.'

...Rab Judah reported Samuel as saying in the name of Rabban Simeon b. Gamaliel; What is signified by the verse, "Mine eye affecteth my soul, because of all the daughters of my city?" There were four hundred synagogues in the city of Bethar, and in every one were four hundred teachers of children, and each one had under him four hundred pupils, and when the enemy entered there they pierced them with their staves, and when the enemy prevailed and captured them, they wrapped them in their scrolls and burnt them with fire.

 

Its a Palestinian village today called "Batyr", its also a name of a certain Zionist movement, and the name of Jerusalem soccer team.....

Next to the village there is a hill called in Arabic "Hirbat el Yahud", meaning the destruction of the Jews, supposed to be Bar Kochva last stronghold.

 

I know about the youth Movement under Jabotinski..

I am speaking of the village..

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/144572/jewish/The-Fall-of-Betar.htm

The Fall of Betar

Do you actually believe this stuff?

 

What's so fantastic about it to disbelive ? its recorded by ancient hostorians and in Arch finds, why disbelive it and not anything else the Romans did ?

 

LOLOLOL..

You mean the claim that the Romans burned 93 million babies in Torah scrolls?

 

Sorry I didnt read that story you posted, I thought you spoke in general, the numbers and accounts are debated among scholars, modren day assumption is the numbers Josephus gave are incorrect, I didnt bother to read Talmud or other religous records...

 

Debated among scholars??????

ALL of Palestine never had such a large population..

 

Josephos never said 93 million babies.., he said around Million died when that's the estimated amount of the entire pop of Judea, while the modern assumtion could be wrong, assuming Josephus was wrong its still not 92 million babies...

 

Do the math.

Those villages were 200-300 people at most.. and the population of Jerusalem was around 50,000 at peak.