Libs, it's time to start thinking for yourself. They are brain washing you.

I'm not a liberal, but your logic would make sense if corporate profits had been in jeopardy. What we've seen is continually climbing profits from corporations with wages stagnant or dropping for 30+ years. Regardless of the reason behind shifting work out of the country, which was really just to lower costs while maximizing profits (every corporation's goal), the hit to the worker took place while profits climbed and worker output increased. So the worker got no more in wages for their additional output, but the corporations themselves retained higher profits by holding wages low.

Nobody was blind to work flowing out of the country to lower wages that workers here would be impacted. The problem is each corporation worked for itself, as it should, to maximize profits in that way. When it became too much for our economy, things started to crumble. And part of the build-up to that was flat wages with increasing costs year over year. Even low inflation hurts consumers who realize no gain in income over many years (inflation adjusted income, not just dollar amounts). So while the goods cost more, we ended up with less and less buying power each year. Many point to strong purchasing since the 1970s, but they ignore the massive personal debt crisis we're in that is holding buyers back from buying many things other than necessities and servicing their own debt. Without increasing wages they used debt as a vehicle to sustain their buying power, just as they did by becoming 2-income homes. Now that neither is enough, we're at a point where consumer buying power is declining and the very corporations who sought profit from low wages areas are crying that we're not spending enough money. Banks are making a fortune from all this personal debt but look at the businesses who sell non-necessities and how they have had to cope or go out of business. Workers moved from full to part time, job cuts, shut down of locations, liquidation, etc.

It's a vicious cycle when workers don't earn enough across the entire working class versus what they did before, and we're realizing all that today. Had corporations continued the 150+ years of wage growth and taken a bit less in profits, they would continue to enjoy strong economic conditions. But that's not what happened and they can largely thank themselves, as well as the officials in government they pushed for legislation to help them achieve these goals. And that happened on both sides of the aisle and under both parties in the presidency.

 

You guys know me well enough to know I have blasted my own Party when they did something I thought was wrong. I have given Obama credit when he did something I thought was right. To set there and not try and look at both sides is crazy. Our governmet, on both sides have hurt us a hell of a lot more than business has. They only took what our government gave them and they sat back and let other nations screw us and take away some of our biggest industries. If you had read all these posts, you have to realize that or your not as smart as I take you for.

 

This OP and the title of your thread does not mention China or Japan. It mentions NAFTA and brainwashed liberals.

Obviously you realized your thread was an embarassment once you looked up wikipedia and realized you were ignorant with regard to NAFTA and liberals, so you moved the goal posts to include Japan and China. Unfortunately your OP and thread title remain.

Why didn't your thread title or OP mention China or Japan? Why did it specifically call out liberals?

Your thread is a failure because you were talking about a topic that you were ignorant about.

 

How does Whirlpool compete with LG and Samsung when Whirlpool is paying $18.00 an hour plus benefits and the other two are making their big appliances in Mexico and Korea and paying a fourth of that? They can't. Especially when Samsung and LG start a price war with Whirlpool. Whirlpool got employees to take a cut, LG and Samsung cut their prices further. So what can Whirlpool do to stay in business? Employees refuse to take any further cuts. So Whirlpool closes three factories and moves to Mexico, costing Americans over 5,000 jobs. Employees are mad as hell at Whirlpool for leaving, but what choice did they have? Go to any appliance store and see what's on their floor. 80% will be Samsung or LG's. Even most of Kenmore's appliances are either Samsung or LG. Whirlpool wouldn't have had to leavve if the American people were willing to pay a little more for American made. But they aren't. That is happening all over the country with American manufactures that are trying to stay here and compete with foreign made products.

 

You sir are a prime example of what I have been saying. You read what you want and not what I say. My title to this thread doesn't say a word about NAFTA. NAFTA is only one thing I have said about trade. Here is the title of my thread.

Thread: Libs, it's time to start thinking for yourself. They are brain washing you.

 

NAFTA is mentioned in the OP.

LOL @ you

 

While I agree with your premise that it is both the Democrats and Republicans are to blame, I guess my memory of that time is different from yours. During the time that NAFTA was passed, I was attending classes at a university and there was a very vocal (and obnoxious) liberal population on campus. They were very much opposed to the passage of NAFTA. The big government unions were very much opposed to NAFTA for the reasons you laid out here.

The problem is that we now have a government based on corporatism. The politicians (on both sides) and business leaders have colluded to enrich themselves at the expense of the workers in this country. I don't see how one can blame government for our problems when our business leaders are part of the problem (and vice versa).

ETA: But don't let that stop you from your lib bashing.

 

Notice too sir. All the things I put up about NAFTA, none of them came from Wikipedia. I know exactly what happened with NAFTA sir, I have talked about it before. So know what your talking about before trying to trash me for telling the truth.

 

I was against NAFTA too. I voted for Ross Parot then, but there wasn't enough of us to get him in. The Democrats were more right about NAFTA than the Republicans. But the leadership in both Parties felt it was a good thing and pushed it hard. My Lib bashing is because of how Libs want o put the whole blame on corporations and Conseratives and act like their Party is innocent of everything.

 

That isn't what you kept saying sir, it was this.

This OP and the title of your thread does not mention China or Japan. It mentions NAFTA and brainwashed liberals.

Nowhere did I say NAFTA in the title. Why is it sir you want me to limit this thread to only NAFTA? It couldn't be because the Republicans are more responsible for NAFTA than Democrats could it? It couldn't be that you wish I had never brought up China and Japan, because the Democrats are more resposible for that could it? No, lets not let it all out and see the whole truth. Lets just limit it to one side. Lets just keep blaming it all on corporations and Republicans.

I have to leave for awhile.

 

Not disagreeing with you on the libs but this thread does reek of having it sole purpose of being just that. One thing that one should note is that there is a difference between liberal and Democrat in much the same way that there is a difference between conservative and Republican. Based on what I remember, the liberals were not supportive of NAFTA. It was the Democrats that were (once they got in control). The problem is that liberals think that the government will fix these problems when the truth is that government is the problem.

Of course, we shouldn't hold our business leaders accountable for their role in this.

 

He is just a troll. Nothing is new here.

 

Anyone else find this post in comparison to the thread title deliciously ironic?

 

It's a classic dishonesty Marine1. This dude is a well documented hatefilled, closed-minded, and an anti free-trade southerner. Rather than admitting it, he attempts to flamebait everyone to support his propaganda.

 

Maybe, maybe not. But his statement that liberals are brainwashed is so accurate, it's almost funny.

 

NAFTA does not hurt us. They don't take our money and store it while we get to keep their stuff. They buy other things we sell, and both nations prosper because of the comparative advantage. Temporary worker disruption, but that happened and was corrected in the 90s.

Dont go blaming everything when the reason is high government spending and debt crisis risk, big obamacare uncertainty and cost hikes, indefinite unemployment, malaise, economic skewing towards the financial industry and inflation. We get pinatas, they get tractors. Win win.

 

If every politician voted as they ethically should, America's problems would be very few, including the income disparity.

A smart person realizes that a corporation buys off politicians because a corporation's business is profit.

However, a politician RECEIVES these buy offs in opposition to their business, which is governing.

Therefore, the politicians are more at fault than the corporations because the corporations are doing their job, politicians are failing to do their job.

Should corps try to buy off politicians? No. But politicians could stop that wrong if they'd do their job of governing. Corps cannot stop dishonest politicians by doing their job of profiting.

It's up to the politicians.
If people don't realize that, it's going to be tough to change things for the poor.

 

Stop government free cash and privilege give aways and there will be no reason to pay off politicians, bureacrats etc... If the people became aware of how they have been duped about the purpose of most regulations, (which are protectionist), and licensing schemes, and real tax rates, (hidden ones, and those passed on by business), they could get this government and get them back into line - but you have to wake up the stupid first. 80% of Americans have no clue what is going on, the rest are children and PF members. Once the people are engaged and demand proper government and string up the crooked, it will make it profitable for politicians to do the right thing - rather then to raise enough campaign money so at least some people have at least heard the name of the person they put in charge of them. If you wait for all politicians and human kind to have a change of heart, you are going to be sitting around awhile depressed. If you give them proper incentives but dont forget to keep the stick around you will get much better results.

 

You're right, demonizing corporations is a very common thing, and it's all about blaming other people for your own shortcomings. It's a mess, I agree. And a way over done complaint.

Yeah, unfortunately, living in the USA, or other fully developed Western countries, requires a higher cost of living paycheck because it costs so much more to live here than in some hut in the wilderness. There is no cutting the wages. At least not below minimum wage. But, because the Unions and Government had their wages inflated so much, for years everyone else has to suffer the shame that they are living on a wage to rich, thick, and good for them? What about the non-union labor? Hello?

On the other hand, if you're a corporation looking to make a profit, those people in the hut don't have big pockets so selling items to them is a low-income market. So, as they say buy low, sell high. Exploit the poor worker to grab the money from the rich country. That's how the world usually works.

Now, there has to be a rich country around for this model to work. But, once every few generations a MEGA economic downturn saps the wealth out of the pockets of the working consumers in the rich countries, and those markets flip out and die in a horrible crash. This is how the free market self-corrects for greed, but taking everyone with it right along.

That's where the Government comes in with its social safety net and tries to cushion the blow.

 

Name one such event caused by too much global trading.

 

Not according to several other articles on it. At the time American and German televisions were top of the line. This article is a little different than the other I put up as he thinks American Manufactures would rather license out their technology than make it. The other article gets farther in it by stating Japan refused to allow American sets to sell in Japan.

After WW2, the 27 American TV companies including Zenith, Emerson, RCA, GE, etc. led the world in TV technology. Then, the owners of the patents on TV technology decided they didn't need to dirty their hands by actually making the TV sets themselves any more, and they started selling licenses to manufacture, which the Japanese bought.

By 1987, the only remaining American TV company was Zenith. The patent holders get their money, but the American products which can be sold overseas are gone, along with the jobs to make them. (Today Zenith is owned by a Korean electronics company.)

The same happened in high-tech electronics. The integrated circuit was invented in the United States. But rather than focus on selling integrated circuits, the companies that owned that technology sold the machines to MAKE integrated circuits around the world, and now America sells very few chips anywhere. The patent holders have their money, but the cash flow from sales of manufactured goods, and the jobs that go with them, are gone. When Seymour Cray needed custom chips for his supercomputers, he had to order them from Japan.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE2/doodoo.php


First article. This shows where there information came from.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/japanyes.txt


In 1955, RCA sold its Estate large appliance operations to Whirlpool Corporation. As part of the deal, Whirlpool was given the right to market "RCA Whirlpool" appliances through the mid-1960s.

Despite the company's indisputable leadership in television technology, David Sarnoff in 1955 commented, "Television will never be a medium of entertainment".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RCA

 

Well, that was part of the plan of NAFTA and Free Trade. Build plants there, put those people to work so they have money to spend and sell to the millions of new consummers. Trouble is, we made those trade agreements to one sided. So much so, a lot more companies left than we ever dreamed. So now all we have left to sell the average consumer in Mexico, India and China is mostly food products. With all our factories over there, they make almost everything the average consumer needs themselves. What we sell to them now is mostly big ticket items to their government and their factories. Stuff like airplanes, bulldozers, tools and dies, machinery and etc. Our biggest rail box car export to China is scrap paper and cardboard. Thats right. All those train box cars coming across our nation loaded down with consumer goods, goes back with mostly our trash to be recycled.

 

Sounds good to me. We get their trinkets, they get our trash heaps. Win Win .

 

Well, this is getting a bit close and personal for me, but my family company used to buy supplies from a wholesale company. They exported their factory to Haiti from China, after the cost of living increased there in China, and that was a little before the disastrous earthquake there in Haiti. Well history happened, and the earthquake struck. The factory was destroyed, the management charged with setting up the operation and the workers as well were killed.

And we had to look for a new supplier because this wholesale company had nothing left in the manufacturing branch to supply us with goods.

This is an example of how these companies pinch pennies and look for maximum savings at all costs. But, when a major disaster strikes they have no backup plan and they fail. This is why it's stupid to put all of your eggs in one basket, and why there should always be a contingency plan, just a little capacity some place else, even if it costs more.

 

Before NAFTA we had a trade surplus. Today?

Mexico | Office of the United States Trade Representative

www.ustr.gov › Countries & Regions › Americas‎

The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with Mexico was $53 billion in 2011. Mexico is currently our 3rd largest goods trading partner with $494 billion in total


Growing U.S. trade deficit with China cost over 2.7 million jobs ...

www.epi.org/news/growing-trade-deficit-china-cost-2-7-million/‎

In his latest look at the effect U.S. trade with China has had on American jobs, EPI Director of Trade and Manufacturing Policy Research Robert Scott finds that ...

USA TODAY ‎- 2 days ago

The U.S. trade deficit fell to a four-year low in November as exports hit ... The U.S. deficit with China dropped 6.7% in November to $26.9 billion.