Life Sentence for Being Gay in Uganda

Discussion in 'Africa' started by alexa, Dec 20, 2013.

  1. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Uganda has today passed it's bill giving a life sentence for homosexuals. This fell short of the death penalty which some were hoping for. It has to be verified by the President within 30 days. Although until recently it was taken for granted he would agree, there seems to be a glimmer of doubt at the moment

    http://guardianlv.com/2013/12/uganda-gays-face-life-sentence-for-being-gay/

    This of course is a Christian Country not Muslim. I think we should remember that before Western colonisation these countries, including Muslim ones, did not think that homosexuality was something to get bothered about.

    There is considerable questioning as to how much responsibility American Fundamental Christians have to the development of homophobia in Uganda and other African countries.

    Comments?
     
  2. leekohler2

    leekohler2 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    10,163
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    0
    She's telling the truth in this case:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/04/world/africa/04uganda.html
     
  3. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Care to explain anti-homosexuality laws in the Koran?
     
  4. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    15,406
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are hilarious! I've asked "Christian haters" why they focus so much hatred on Christians when all across the world terrorism, gay, religious and gender persecution including honor killings are done world wide in Islamic countries, Islamic communities by Muslims and they say....its natural to focus close to home.,

    But here you are....
     
  5. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    In what way, that Ugandans weren't homophobic before American Evangelicals arrived in Uganda for a three day seminar, or that they were responsible for the drafting of anti-homosexual legislation?

    In either case, you should bother reading the article to find out you're wrong.
     
  6. leekohler2

    leekohler2 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    10,163
    Likes Received:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I did read the article. Here you go, I'll quote it for you.

     
  7. Indofred

    Indofred Banned at Members Request

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    3,103
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    According to the CIA country profile, the vast majority of the population are Christians who are simply following the teachings of the bible.

    Is the OP anti Christian and, as you are complaining about them following the bible, why do you think gay rights are above their Christian rights?

    I believe the OP is discriminating against Christians.
     
  8. Politically Incorrect

    Politically Incorrect New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2013
    Messages:
    75
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Africa has a long history of anti-gay hatred, blaming it on Christians is completely wrong. The article you cited is economical with the truth and has a clear bias (which of course is from the New York Times which has a history of, dare I say it, being liberal with the truth)
     
  9. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    3,091
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If you wonder why the issue of gay rights comes up when a country makes it illegal, well I'll explain it: We were hoping that those countries wouldn't backslide and make a sexual orientation illegal where it wasn't illegal before. But, when it does happen, the conditions in these backsliding countries are going from unstable to bad very fast.

    There's little hope for the countries that already have laws against homosexuality. These are places that are the worst of the worst. It's tough to even outreach to them because the sexual act is illegal and often they also have laws that prevent offensive public behavior, which might include protests to remove anti-homosexuality laws, and even foreign political aid, and that leaves those homosexuals in that country alone and on the wrong side of the law.
     
  10. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    37,994
    Likes Received:
    7,948
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    This is a backlash towards the pressure gays have been forcing on the world, without any concern towards the values and sensibilities of others. Believe me, Uganda will not be the only nation, a lot more will follow. When lobbying groups try to use the economic power of the U.S. in order to impose whatever they want on others, it can lead to problems way beyond what anyone could imagine.

    If it was only the 'gays' who suffered, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately though it goes way beyond that. Let's not forget that Bin Laden stated one of the reasons for his attack, which led to over a million deaths, was the immorality we are exporting to the world. It was one of the major reasons for the extremism we now see in the Islamic world, and which has affected ours as well.

    I mentioned once that in the last century there were two political evils in direct opposition towards one another. One was the international atheist communism of the Soviet Union, and the other the pagan nationalism of Germany. Well in this century we have the rise of two more evils. One is a secularism where the very Christian foundation of our society is in jeopardy, and the other a ruthless Islamic fundamentalism with a total indifference towards human rights and human life.

    In the next clash of beliefs, whether they be political or otherwise, I am afraid there will be no winners. :pray:
     
  11. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Puleeze, this is the first time I have spoken of Christians acting badly....however your identification of criticism of Christianity and liberals complaining is telling.
     
  12. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Well you obviously can't or you would have been putting them up. I came upon this a week or so ago

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/may/05/whatswrongwithbeinggayand

    - - - Updated - - -

    Why the fear of looking at situations and so calling people who tell the truth 'haters'?
     
  13. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    You cannot move away from American Fundamentalist Christians being involved in this. That I do think is concerning for the West.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james...das-kill-the-gays-bill-you-are_b_2229509.html
     
  14. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    My mistake. I am known to have the odd word about Christian Zionists too.
     
  15. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    So your article acknowledges that Islamic law condemns and criminalizes homosexuality, right?

    Or do you have some mental issue that you can't recall what you said several hours ago: "This of course is a Christian Country not Muslim. I think we should remember that before Western colonisation these countries, including Muslim ones, did not think that homosexuality was something to get bothered about."
     
  16. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    What the thread starter doesn't know is that homosexuality wasn't decriminalized until the colonial era during the Tanzimat reforms by the Ottoman empire to compete w/ the West.

    Homosexuality was criminalized throughout the Muslim world before then and still is today.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam#Medieval_jurisprudence
     
  17. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Funny you exclude the previous sentences:

     
  18. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Unlike yourself the author was a Muslim Scholar with a lifetime of studying. This is distracting from the subject of the post which I accept comes from my adding unnecessary material in the op.

    so. I was first informed that it was French Colonialists who made homosexuality illegal in Lebanon by a Lebanese woman. Because I put it in the op I have now looked up studies on this and what seems to be the situation is that yes, colonialists brought their laws and views on homosexuality to countries they colonised and that the difference in whether it is legal or not in those countries has more to do with whether they were colonised by the French or the British. The British producing the worse affects.

    You can download the study here http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=x-7qqwgHxaUh0fWk-Ex60w&bvm=bv.58187178,d.ZG4

    You may need to refresh the link.

    This though is an aside which later I realised I should have left out.

    The issue is the current activities of American Christian Fundamentalists to encourage by 'education' and money African countries to disregard human rights and encourage barbarous treatment of homosexuals.

    I remember a few years ago when I was researching American Christianity and Literalism, I was shocked to find that 55% of American Christians believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

    Secondly, a Pew Poll found that a majority of American Christians put their Christianity above their Citizenship.
     
  19. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Great red-herring. I asked you what the Koran says about homosexuality in reply to a post you made claiming Oriental societies before colonialism accepted homosexuality. Strangely, you didn't provide medieval commentary or cite legislation to show how the Koran was interpreted in those days, but cited someone's fringe interpretation today.

    In other words, you totally failed to support your claim that homosexuality was no 'big-deal' to the people of Africa and the Middle East before colonialism.

    Are you even capable of understanding the incoherence of your rebuttal?

    Really? B/c Lebanon was under Muslim rule for centuries. Please cite what Islamic law says on homosexuality.

    But perhaps you can't bother to read: I've already pointed out the Ottomans decriminalized homosexuality in the mid 19th century to mimic European liberalism in a bid to revive their empire.

    I shouldn't need to explain this, but: If something is 'decriminalized', that means it was once illegal prior to the recent legislation. In other words, homosexuality was illegal under the Ottomans for most of their tenure as an empire - and before the Colonial age in the Middle East.

    Comically, what I've shown is the exact *opposite* to what you claim: the Colonial period effected the liberalization of homosexual legislation in the Muslim world.







    Too bad you haven't actually shown that as I've already demonstrated in this thread. All three American evangelicals - who visited Uganda for a three day trip - condemn Uganda's proposed legislation punishing homosexuals.

    I remember a few years ago when I was researching American Christianity and Literalism, I was shocked to find that 55% of American Christians believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible.

    So why don't the 90 % of Americans having pre-marital relations stone themselves? I guess nuance isn't another of your strengths.

    Falls short of the 80+ % of a British religious minority community identifying themselves by religion first.
     
  20. stjames1_53

    stjames1_53 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,736
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IMO, this is progressive, hardly backsliding
     
  21. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    13,928
    Likes Received:
    3,091
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    What are you talking about?
     
  22. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    15,406
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why target only Christianity when obviously---it isn't even a noticable percentage of the persecutions and terror against those who think differently then the belief system in place ? There are women being gang raped for having not covering their face, women can't drive cars by law, gays being hung in Iran, and Atheism apparently doesn't even exist in Saudi Arabia. The only country that allows tolerance and freedom within its society is Israel...and then people of your stripe are against even THAT society?

    The question is---when it comes to freedom and tolerance verses authoritarianism and totaltarianism ---which side are you really on?
     
  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    In this particular instance it is Uganda Christians being manipulated by conservative American Christians who I understand are a small part of American Christianity. It is not directed at all Christians.

    My interest in the situation in Uganda originally came from a Documentary by Stephen Fry so that got me interested and why I noticed this on the news yesterday. However as soon became clear there is something quite concerning going on based in the US. I have only begun reading on this. Here you can too.

    http://www.publiceye.org/publications/globalizing-the-culture-wars/pdf/africa-full-report.pdf
    Try and stick to the topic. Why are Fundamental American Christians spreading hate against LGBT inciting African Preachers to hate and even the Death Penalty?

    I am the freedom and tolerance type. You I would guess not wanting people to speak of Fundamental American Christians being the force behind intolerance in African Christian countries are for the opposite.

    I am so looking forward to finding out more. I remember hearing George Bush say roughly 'They think they are religious' (talking of Al Qaeda) 'but they don't realise we are religious too' with a strange smile on his face. Never forgotten it. I think I am on my way to finding out what he was talking about.
     
  24. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    15,406
    Likes Received:
    3,465
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think your passion is to attack Christianity and you found a real case of persecution against Gay Behavior and based on your posts it has you excited. I would be curious how many threads against Islam you have posted and why no passion for that topic?

    But to keep on topic---no you don't have to fear fundamental Christians in the US. That should be obvious. The threat to freedom here...doesn't come from them.
     
  25. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    18,965
    Likes Received:
    3,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    My interest in far more global imperialism. You should take care not to make projections on people but to go by what they say and argue that. Check out the rules.

    Interesting because one of the first things I read about these Christians was that one of their prime interests is spreading hatred of Islam. Certainly found that interesting as I had never encountered it until I came on internet forums. Try and deal with the topic rather than attempt to attack me.
    I don't 'fear' fundamental American Religious but their actions in the world along with their high political profile of course needs attention and I think you will find they are very scarce on the humanitarian values you claimed. Indeed it is argued they are a danger to other Christians with their ideas of social justice. One of the reasons they are at work in Africa is because of the declining Christianity in the west, hence the hope to find a way to stifle the Christian's of the West social justice and human rights orientation. Like I said it is not about all Christians. Do you put all Muslim's in one bag? You should read the paper I gave you. That will give you something real to argue.
     

Share This Page