Nope..you and your corporate rational is WRONG, and the mindset is very self serving, dishonest, conceited and destructive to humanity in general, and I reject it, and the people that advocate how fantastic it all is.
It would be nice to at least see it tied to a realistic cost of living, or apply the same standard of limitation to corporate profit. Profit is always unlimited, but labor is always limited. Bad idea, all the way around.
At what point does profit affect society? Tell me, do you profit from whatever work you do? How horrible is that? Or is profit only bad if it's not your own profit? No, of course free market can't be abusive, unless it violates justice. For example fraud. If you lie to me, that your old car is only has 30,000 miles on it, when in fact it has 130,000 miles on it, then that's abusive only because you engaged in fraud. But if you tell me the car has 130,000 on it, and are up front, and I engage in voluntary trade with you (money for the car), then no, that is not abusive. We're not pre-78 China. You have a choice in who gets your money. You have a choice in who you work for. You have a choice to sit on your butt, and complain about other people who earn more because they are not sitting on their butt like you. But they are not "abusive" because you are lazy. You are just lazy if you sit on your butt. That's how life works. It's not 'abusive' because you can't stand it that others earn more from working, and you don't for complaining. You are entitled to jack squat. You only get what you and someone else, contract for. And *NOTHING ELSE*.
Profits are never unlimited, unless the government regulates them. And honestly, when you look at these supposed monopolies, they never are gouging the customer, as much as your government regulated systems do. It's like the cost of phone service, especially long distance phone service, before the break up, and after. They broke up the phone company, and now to place a call from one side of the country to the other, you had to have the call pass through the phone lines of a dozens separate companies, each one charging additional costs, in order to pay the overhead of the each company. Long distance prices went up drastically. Well that was brilliant. Same thing in California's energy crisis. As much as the whiny left complained about Enron, in reality, California caused their own problems. The electric companies were forced by leftist so-called "deregulation" to sell off all the power plants they owned to separate companies. Of course each company started charging a higher price, because now each power plant had over head costs to pay. Prices went up dramatically, while at the same time, the same "deregulation" idiots put in place a price cap, preventing the California utilities to pass on costs to the consumer. Then you have rolling black out, and the moronic brainless left, blames Enron, and "deregulation"? Profits are never unlimited. Nor are wages limited. Everything is constrained by market forces. The only way to not have market forces, is to engage in Socialism, and honestly if that's what you want, go live in Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea. We won't miss you. But I promise you, you'll be yearning and dreaming of the days where your life was so good, you could b!tch and moan on forums about how horrible capitalism was.
I don't believe you, but I don't have time at this moment to bother searching the archives. If I do later, I might. But I distinctly remember you saying you have engaged in criminal behavior. Stealing so much as a pencil from your employer, is criminal behavior, and immoral. You want to tell me you've paid for a legal copy of the operating system your computer is running right now? Download any illegal programs, movies or songs? I know you people on the left. "Morality" is relative to most of you, and therefore, there is no morality, because your made up morality is just your imagination. If you are the one leftist, who actually believes in right and wrong, then how do you claim to steal the legally earned profits of other people in business? That alone proves you have no morals in my book. You are so full of absolute crap. Did I say "corporations are people".... Corporations ARE MADE UP OF PEOPLE. Is that too hard for you? Which word was beyond your logic and reason, that you can't figure it out? Are leftards incapable of basic reading now? You just lied. You are a liar, and a leftist. Which is redundant. ZERO. They don't "confiscate" anything you liar. Ford has not confiscated a single PENNY from me. They earned a profit from me, when they built a car I valued enough to purchase. Stop being a scum sucking liar. If that's even possible with you leftists. You have lied so many times in this one post, I don't believe any of that either. I think you do pilfer. I think you do kill jobs with bad leftists policies. I think you do demand bailouts for people, and possibly yourself. Further, every error that one company does in one place, doesn't apply to all of them. You paint all business people with a broad brush stroke. If that's the standard, then I can paint you with a broad brush stroke from all the lefts. Concentration camps. Mass killings. Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler. By your own standard *YOU DO* all of those things Mr Hypocrite Sir. If you can pass guilt by association, then you are guilty as charged Sir. Isn't it funny how hypocrites accuse everyone else of what they themselves are doing? You on this thread, have been very self service, dishonest, conceited, and destructive to humanity in general. Like the typical leftists I have known my whole life, you accuse everyone else of doing what YOU YOURSELF are doing. Serious.... you have ZERO credibility in my book. Take your arrogant, self righteous, hypocrisy, and shove it...
Fraud, doesn't give crap about people. Never has. There is only one single motivation he has. Greed and Envy of corporations. And it's the universal motivation of all leftist. This is why the people of Cuba drove out all business, end up in object poverty, and leftist twits on forums, and proclaim Castro a 'man of the people', even though the people were swimming to Florida to escape him. This is why leftists on this very forum, had avatars of Hugo Chavez, even while Venezuela had food and power shortages nationwide, and the economy went from the best performing economy in Latin America, to the worst, with the highest rates of brain drain, as everyone with any intelligence left. Fraud, like all leftist couldn't care less what damage his policies cause, or how many are left impoverished because of them, as long as he believes that he's "sticking it to the man" and all the rest of his Greed and Envy BS. He'd have us sink to 3rd world status like China, as long as the corporations left.
You just don't like examining your own affairs, and it makes you mad so, you bark it out here. If the corporations left, that would be a good thing, no matter the outcome. We could be reborn with corporations abolished. The gold rush, all over again.
Interesting article about the origin of the minimum wage that contributed to economic recovery, was allied with decent working conditions, gave rise to a thriving middle class, and led to US primacy amongst nations.
Lot of libertarian/conservative ideas out there wrestling with the dilema. The Un-earned tax credit is supposed to be helpful. Let the corporations pay an equilibrium price for labor, but they're going to pay taxes to help fund such a thing. Another idea from Charles Murray: get rid of most of the social welfare state and just give each person over 20 in a household at least $10K a year (adjusted for inflation). Let them earn what they will outside that. But I think the market, equilibrium prices, and high rates of employment are important to a society.
Those corporate types are not all dunces but they all seem to have their middle class mouthpieces. Some even recognize that impoverishing a good part of the population might even end up hurting their businesses in the long run. http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_289563/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=XQSnI7LU
No, I don't like people who think they are owed something. I don't like people who are hypocrites. I don't like greedy and envious people. Lefists happen to be a combination of everything I hate. My own affairs.... are that of a lower income citizen. I make $20,000 a year, at best. The difference is, I earn what I have, I work for a living, and appreciate everything that this country has provided me. Moreover, I don't care what others have. I would LOVE IT... if everyone but me, was a millionaire. If everyone was successful, and I was the one doofus on the planet still earning $20,000 a year, I would be ECSTATIC!!! I am happy when ANYONE WINS! Some drunk guy in the back woods, whittling duck callers, ends up a multi-millionaire, while I'm sober, and earning $20,000. WONDERFUL! ANOTHER SUCCESSFUL AMERICAN! That's the difference. That's what sets apart the left from the right. You'd rather everyone be impoverished and poor, than for someone to be a multi-millionaire. When someone does a good job, and provides 2.2 Million jobs for people, and provides multiple billions in goods and products to the citizens of this country, instead of being happy that 2.2 million people have jobs, and hundreds of millions have access to cheaper goods and products... you whine, b!tch and moan, that evil Walmart blaw blaw blaw. You want to know what makes me mad? I'll tell you exactly what makes me mad. America is the most wealthy society that has ever existed. Our poor people, have higher standards of living, the 90% of the people on this planet. A married couple, working at McDonald's for minimum wage, are in the top 1% of wage earners on the entire planet. People in other countries, hear people like you, and LAUGH. They LAUGH at you. I was just listening to the BBC about South Africa, and this guy got a free trip to America, and talked about how infuriating it was to hear people here talk about how poor they were growing up. This is why people around the world hate Americans. Stupid.... ignorant... selfish... spoiled brat Americans.... living higher standard of living than anywhere else on the planet, and all you can do is moan... .and whine... and cry.... and b!tch.... and pout..... Aww poor little American... poor poor baby American..... Can you not afford your triple latte at Starbucks, while surfing on your nation wide coverage cell phone with data package, and netflix subscription? AWWWWWWW!!! SO SAD LITTLE AMERICAN!! Cry little American! Wah wah little American..... Here's a thought poor Americans..... Shut up.... grow up.... get a job, and work for what you earn, like the rest of the planet. How about you Americans appreciate how good you have it for once is your pathetic worthless lives. Other people are risking their lives to get what you babyish juvenile idiotic Americans have taken for granted.
What basis do you have that the minimum wage "contributed" to the economic recovery? Because a politician called it National Industrial Recovery Act? You do realize that the name of the bill, doesn't dictate the effects of the bill? It's just a name dude. This act was passed in June. By September, unemployment climbed to 25%. By 1937, unemployment dropped to about 12%. After the Fair Labor Standards Act, was passed, unemployment went back up to 16% and remained there for 3 more years. There is ZERO evidence that the minimum wage helped recover the economy. And there is some evidence that it harmed the economy.
First off, I don't care what corporate people say about anything. Their word has no greater value than my own, or yours. Someone pointed out, that what some people on the left tend to confuse, is market value with human value. As if, being paid more, means you have a greater value. You don't. If you make $100,000 a year, you have no more value as a human, as when you earn $10,000 a year. Your human value doesn't change with your pay check. But your pay check value, does change with your market value. A corporate CEO that creates millions of jobs, and provides billions of products that people want, has a very high market value. That's why he earns millions. But his human value, is still the exact same as it was, when he was pooping in a diaper and sucking milk from his mothers breast. Now if he has something interesting to say, I'll listen. I hear out Warren Buffet if he says something. But I do not give any additional credence to Warren Buffet, or Mike Duke, or Donald Trump. If they want to talk about how grocery stores work, or banks, or investment companies, then you've got something. Otherwise, it's just another opinion, by another person. So I don't care what the "corporate types" say about economics, because most of them don't know jack about economics. That said..... No one wants most, or part, or any of the population impoverished. The problem is, the left wing, wants to prevent that by stealing from the working people, to give to the non-working people. The right-wing wants to prevent that by motivating people to work, and produce, so they can earn money and not be impoverished. The left wing wants to pay people who make bad choices that harm society. The right-wing wants to have people earn their own pay, and benefit society.
That is just not true. The left wants people who work a full day to have a dignified life. And do not want them to be kicked on the streets when briefly being in between jobs. While the right wants a total impoverished population, since paying low wages means the owners can earn more. And take the US as an example. It's exceptionally right wing and 1 in 6 is at the poverty line. Big grats on achieving that.
No, you are liar. I can prove it. McDonald's in Norway. They have NO minimum wage. Now according to you... from your claim the McDonald's in Norway should be paying 5¢ an hour. Do they? Nope, they pay almost $16 an hour. Right there.... your claim is gone. You fail. In fact, I just got a raise myself at my job. According to your claim, that shouldn't happen. You fail. Your claim is wrong. And by the way, my CEO is a major right-wing Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Fox New type. Big time too. If you were right, why did he give me a raise? Did you know that 75% of all McDonald's Franchises are owned by people who started off earning minimum wage as burger flippers? Fail! Proof your claim is wrong. If owners wanted to earn more, and keep wages as low as possible, it would be impossible for someone to earn enough to buy a McDonald's franchise, when they worked for McDonalds. You are wrong. You leftists are ALWAYS wrong. You NEVER have the facts on your side. Every single time, you are proven wrong over and over and over again. And by the way, you leftists had control of China for 50 years. In 1978, before they engaged in Capitalism, 62% of the population earned below China's poverty line of $2 a DAY. And you want to say that we keep people poor? Hypocrite much? What's your excuse for North Korea mass graves? What's your excuse for Venezuelan food shortages? What's your excuses for a hundred years of failure by your policies, that doomed generations to starvation, poverty and hopelessness? You have zero credibility on that issue. ZERO.
Do you pay taxes on your business? Do you pay yourself a wage? There are ways to come out on top if you use tax credits and your brains.
You forgot to tell him that a meal at that McDonalds in Norway costs a little more than the hourly wage. Do you think that dude believes the $16 an hour is getting a Norwegian fry cook a good standard of living? You might also show him this graph which shows that even with raises, the lowest paid people have a straight line standard of living in 2003 inflation dollars over the last 35 years. View attachment 24907 Click on link to enlarge image. he probably won't accept that if we doubled the minimum wage tomorrow, withing a very short time all the other income ranges would double too based on historical evidence and the doubled minimum wage would still only buy the same standard of living.
Yes, yes yes...compared to kids in sweatshops in China, we all have it so wonderful, and we should get on our collective knees for 'the corporation' and blow them. I got it.
Exactly the kind of spoiled brat response I expected from the ignorant and stupid left. Compared to ANYWHERE, we have a good standard of living. I've been Europe. We have it better than them. I've been to Italy, where people still use a hand sickle to cut their grass, because the cost of a mower, and the cost of fuel, is so high, people can't afford it on a middle class income. Just go live in a your spoiled brat ignorance, believing you have it so bad, while the rest of the world LAUGHS at you, and your whiny ungrateful attitude.
Not at all. I have really good life. I'm rarely ever mad about anything. My parents taught me to be happy with what I have, and ecstatic with the good that others have. Like I said, if I was the only person in the entire country that was earning $20K, and everyone else was making millions, I'd be elated! I want everyone to succeed! What I get upset about, just as I said before, is people who are so greedy, so envious, so selfish and spoiled, that they actually want other people to not succeed. And you know what? I am very angry about spoiled, stupid, ignorant, brat American's that have a higher standard of living than the rest of the world, and are so ungrateful for what they have. Moreover... I am justified in being angry about that, because it's morally right. The ungrateful, spoiled, envious left.... is wrong, and IMMORAL. So yes, I am very angry about that, and I'm right to be angry about that. People that think that way, are human scum. They should be deported. The rest of America would be better off without them. They should be deported to the countries which subscribe to their beliefs. Let them die in the egalitarian mass starvation of North Korea. Let them languish in the poverty of Cuba. Let them root through the trash cans of Venezuela looking for food, coffee and toilet paper. When these pathetic babies, whose parents failed to raise them right, learn what the real reality is under their leftist belief, they will be begging to come home.... just like people of those countries are begging to come to America. But no no, they won't put their money where their mouth is. Hypocrites every single one. They won't go live in those countries, and living under their own belief system. Because deep down, even the b!tchy whiny brats, know they have it good. They are just so evil, immoral, envious, and greedy, that they don't care, and want to complain about everything anyway.
I don't care what they say either, but it is wrong from the get-go to suggest that what they say has no greater value than what you or I say, human or market value. Their market value translates into human value. They are what they are (able to go to the halls of congress to get things changed their way). No sense trying to dichotomize value.
People get raises because their employers understand that if they leave, it might cost the employers more to bring in a new hire. They don't do it for altruistic reasons. But I'll give you this, the left wants more. They've seen what has happened to the middle class over the last 40 years (cripes, just look at the charts) and how the rich have profited. And the rich have profited only artificially, i.e., by contacting their congressmen and lobbyists for new protections and government concessions. They've learned that they can get richer by producing and hiring less.
No it doesn't. And they don't 'get things changed their way' either. If they could do that, then why did Bernie Madoff go to jail? Why the CEOs of Enron go to jail? Why was the management of GM replaced? The people who are talk to government the most, are the banks. And the banks are the most heavily regulated sector of the economy, more so than anywhere else in the world. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Who cares if the reasons are altruistic? Nor did I ever suggest it was altruistic. Nor should it be altruistic. Tell me... if you go to a fine restaurant, do you drop a $50 bill as a tip for a $15 meal? That would be altruistic. You don't do that. When you go to have an oil change on your car for $20, do you pay them $30? That would be altruistic. You don't do that. Why would you expect that others do things for altruistic reasons, when you yourself never do them for altruistic reasons? As for the rich profiting from getting government help.... it's the left that causes that. It was the left that wanted bank bailouts. Look how many still believe the bailouts "saved the economy", and "saved GM from closing" and on and on and on. Look at the green energy grants, and the research grants, and all the special projects, and infrastructure building. All of these are leftist beliefs. All of these are leftist policies. You want to complain about the rich sucking up tax money, and then turn around and be the biggest proponents of those very policies? This is *YOUR* doing. Stop it. Stop being a hypocrite. Stop complaining about rich people making money off the tax payers, when you are the one pushing the policies of taking money from tax payers and giving it to them. Yet another perfect example of leftist hypocrisy. You people on the left do this all the time. You accuse others of doing what YOU yourself are doing. You claim others are making up stuff, and then YOU make up crap in that very post. We're not slaves. Stop being a child, and grow up. You have a choice. I have a choice. I have quit several jobs. What happened to me? Nothing. I just didn't go back to work. They didn't send the police. They didn't round me up. They didn't deport me over state lines. They didn't dump me off back at my work place. Nothing happened. Why? Because we're not slaves. You don't have to work the job you are at. You can wake up Monday morning, and choose to not go to work, and there isn't anything that anyone anywhere, can do to stop you. How many millions of examples of this are there? In 2001, I was working for a Cadillac dealership, and there were these two mechanics that worked there. One was this old crusty mean guy, who told me he hated his job. I told him to quit, and he responded like you "I can't quit!" and gave his BS reasons blaw blaw blaw. The other guy, same age, but really nice, said he'd like to quit too. I told him to quit, and open his own shop. He quit... he rented a building, and had cars lined up around the block, to be fixed. He tripled his income. That's the difference between the left and the right. The left makes up a bunch of crap, made up crap, to justify their stupidity and policies. The right, goes out there, and makes a living, and if they want to do something else, they do it.
Actually very few make minimum wage or close to it so why don't all companies just pay minimum wage? And still waiting for you to state at what profit margin does a company reach MEGA-profit. I bet you wouldn't give a clear and concise answer to back your assertion and so far you are proving me correct.
