My disappointment, disagreement and disgust with the militant atheist movement

Actually they fail quite miserably.

What are you Stalin? YES I WAS A CHRISTIAN. Get over it - Christians pile their beliefs on a nonsensical, childish fairy tale.

How do you know I'm looking for a reason? You dont know me.

Yes because Christians have given me their reasons and I have PROVEN they are bs.

No, they could present an argument, that if was rational and logical I would accept immediately. You want to give it a shot?

WRONG. If a Christian came to me with a LOGICAL, RATIONAL reason - that us a reason that MADE SENSE, I would INSTANTLY become a Christian again - INSTANTLY.

How?

Yes I know. What you have is not proof, but delusion.

I WAS though.

Of course I'm part of the 'we'. After all Jesus made it clear we were all brothers bound together.

No you dont. You wish you did, but you dont.

LOL no he doesn't. Hey you know I'd be willing to believe you but you haven't shown ho0w they know. I was a Christian and I can tell you that just because you are a Christian does not mean you know God exists.

LOL No your faith is blind precisely because you cant see God.

Sure mate, keep up with your delusions, and I'll keep laughing.

Yes, there are. You arent the communsit party. I was a Christian - there is no God. FACT.

Yes he was. He lost his faith when he was a kid.

Lift your game, although I dont think you had one to bring.

 

No, actually they do very well.

Again, there are no used to be Christians.

Thats what you asked for. Remember?

No, you just prove you reject their reasons.

The Bible claims and is the Word of God. Jesus Christ came in fulfilment of the Scriptures. All who believe on Jesus Christ are saved. I believed Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and as a result, am saved.

You never were a Christian. If you don't believe the record given by faith, you never came. See. Its not that the Christian doesn't reason. Our reason is based first of all on our faith.

Because the Spirit of God has opened my eyes to see that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Because my spirit has been born-again. Because God lives in my spirit. I know. No, you don't know. Your basing your knowledge only on external things. You can't determine the things of the Spirit.

As I said, there are no used to be Christians. My only brothers and sisters are those who are Christian. You are neither.

Yes, I know God exists. I know Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God. Just because you don't believe it, means nothing as to my knowing.

See, you prove by your statements you never were a Christian. The Christian knows. You never did, because you were never Christian.

Laugh away. It is you who are blind. The Christian can see. You testify continuously of your blindness.

No, Dawkins was never a Christian. He had no faith to lose. There are no used to be Christians.

Quantrill

 

All the debates I have seen Christian apologists in that were about God left them lost for words.

Yes, there are - increasingly more so than ever before.

No I do not reject them - I DESTROY them with the application of reason.

The Bible is the word of men, not God.

Actually he failed to fulfill the scriptures, hence why most Jews didnt follow him.

No one is "saved".

No, you believe that and thus you are a fool.

Yes, I was.

But I did and then I reached the age of reason.

I already said this, and you disagreed. Faith is just blind hope - not rational observation.

No it hasnt. You just deluded yourself, probably because your parents taught you.

Oh I know alright - God never did anything for or to you. Even if he did he has some seriously messed up priorities - he spends his time 'opening your eyes' rather than saving starving, dying children.

If you mean reality, yes.

Indeed because the spirit is bull(*)(*)(*)(*).

Yes there are - many in fact.

I am your brother most certainly - Jesus himself said this.

No you BELIEVE he exists - BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again you have belief, not knowledge. Faith, not reason.

LOL I was a Christian. No Christian ever 'knows' God is real - they simply 'believe and hope' he is real.

hahaha ludicrous nonsense.

Yes, he was.

Yes there are plenty - you are talking to one.

 

I have not witnessed such things. As I said, they do very well.

No, there are no used to be Christians.

You have no ability to destroy the Christians reasons or faith. You just don't believe them.

Really, prove Jesus Christ did not come in fulfillment of Scripture, as you have claimed.

1Cor.2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No, you didn't say what I have said. I never said faith is blind hope. You did. The Christians faith is not blind. He believes because he sees. It is you who does not see. It is you who are blind.

External things is the only reality you know. The Christian knows the reality of God, and the world of the Spirit.

You are no brother to me or any other Christian. Give the chapter and verse where you say Jesus said this.

I know God. I know Jesus Christ. As all Christians do.

Quantrill

 

That's because you're ignorant.

How would you know? You just said you've never seen them get intellectually pummeled because you're world is so small.

Yes there are many.

Yes I do.

http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/did-jesus-fulfill-the-jewish-scriptures-for-messiah/
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/Jewish-View-Of-Jesus.htm

Faith is blind nonsense. FACT.

It IS reality, no matter what you or I know.

He knows nothing.

"Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?"
http://bible.cc/malachi/2-10.htm
http://www.twopaths.com/jneighbr.htm
http://www.heartlight.org/wjd/matthew/0205-wjd.html
http://www.twopaths.com/faq_love.htm

No, you dont. You know OF them.

 

No, I said the atheists does nothing to discourage the Christians faith. I have never witnessed it.

No, there are no used to be Christians.

Please, dont just give a link. Explain. Prove Jesus Christ didn't come in fulfillment of Old Testament.

External things are all you know. The Christian knows the things of God.

Chapter and verse. Not a link. Prove what Jesus said by the Bible. You said Jesus said we are all brothers and sisters. So, now prove it.

No, we know Him.

Quantrill

 

And I said the reason you have not witnessed it is because you are small minded and haven't dared to venture outside your deprived intellectual world.

Yes, there are.

I dont have the time, the links are short and concise. Read them. They provide the answer more articulately than I could try.

Thanks for the white flag. Win

I already gave a verse.

No, you dont.

I think you're actually a Muslim.

 

No, there are no used to be Christians.

Oh, you don't have the time. You have the time to say Jesus didn't fulfill Old Testament prophecy. Im not interested if your not interested in explaining. Your not explaining because you don't know and its easier to send someone to a link.

External things are all you know. The Christians know the things of God. How is that a win?

No, you gave a link. So where is the chapter and verse?

Yes, the Christians know God, and Jesus Christ.

Quantrill

 

Of course there are. How do you refer to someone who was once a Christian but then changed their mind?

Here you go mate:
It is legitimate to say that Jesus (Yeshua) did not fulfill all the messianic prophesies, and this lack of fulfillment is the basis for a split between Christianity and Judaism. This segment is not to examine every messianic prophecy, because that can be found by doing a general search on the internet. Instead, this is to look at HOW the messianic plan was meant to be carried out. Did Jesus do what he was supposed to do, or did he fall short of his mission?

The Moshiach- What Jews Expect

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as “moshiach ben David” (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15), and ushers in a time of peace on earth. But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person’s lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.

Did Jesus miss it?

Jesus (Yeshua) was born into a Jewish family. He was a rabbi. He was well aware of the scriptures and the expectations of the Jews. So if he was the messiah, why did he not fulfill those prophesies which would meet their expectations? He certainly did miraculous works, and witnesses testify of his death and resurrection.

He knew the messiah was to be the prince of peace, so where was the peace? When he rose from the dead, why didn’t he establish peace on earth then? That would have been the best time, and would have convinced everyone. Why didn’t he defeat the Romans and take over the throne in Israel? Had he only come to suffer, die and leave, allowing his people to remain in the hands of their enemies? What kind of redemption was that?

Did Jesus know what he was doing? As enlightened as he was, as evidenced by his demonstrated wisdom and teachings, we would expect him to carefully reconsider suffering through a crucifixion, if that would not accomplish God’s purpose in the messiah. Why did he resist being declared an earthly king when the Jews wanted him to take that position? If there was supposed to be peace on earth with an earthly king, why did he say his kingdom was not of this world? This sounds very spiritual, but has no practical use to people who need to be saved from their enemies. Was his purpose to frustrate the Jews, and die as a failure?

Did Jesus know what he was doing? Was there a plan that he was following, that he expected those familiar with scriptures to recognize? What plan was he following? Why did he say he would be back later? Where he get the idea he was supposed to make 2 trips to accomplish the divine plan for the messianic kingdom? Was he way off, or right on schedule?

There is evidence from the Book of Daniel that the Messiah was to come to regain the kingdom (lost in the Garden of Eden by Adam) for the saints, and then turn it over to the saints, who would possess it, and struggle against Satan to keep it. In a final battle, the Messiah would return to join with the saints, to finally defeat the enemy and secure the kingdom forever in a royal democracy.

Messiah in 2 trips

In the book of Daniel, chapter 7, the vision of the 4 great beasts has just been given. In verse 9, the Ancient of Days is seated on his throne. The first beast is slain and the rest of the beasts have their dominion taken away, for “a season and a time.” Verses 13-14 describe the Son of Man (Messiah) coming before the Ancient of Days :

Son of man receives kingdom in heaven

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Here we see the kingdom being given apparently in heaven, not on earth, to the Son of man, who is the messiah. David is given an interpretation, and told in verse 18:

The saints then take the kingdom

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Now, since the saints of the Most High just received the kingdom, they must have gotten it from the one who had it before them, which is the Son of Man (Messiah). They are possibly administrating it on his behalf, after a transfer of some sort, or it is now just theirs. The saints would be those who are faithful to the Son of Man. In verses 19-20, the fourth beast has come to power, and has 10 horns on his head, and one horn which has conquered 3 other horns. It then says in verse 21:

The fourth beast attacks the saints

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Now the kingdom is in jeopardy, with the horn apparently winning, until verse 22:

Ancient of Days judges in favor of the saints

Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The kingdom, all along, was meant to belong to the saints of the Most High, and the Messiah has an important role in making this happen. We are not looking at an absolute monarchy, but a royal democracy, where the people share in the kings’ authority.

Verse 27 says:

And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

This is also confirmed in Micah 4:8

And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Notice this does not say the kingdom will come to one man alone, the messiah. The kingdom is coming to the nation of Israel as a whole.

Isaiah 60 tells of the glory that will come to Israel:

1 “Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.
2 “For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you.
3 “Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.
4 “Lift up your eyes round about and see; They all gather together, they come to you. Your sons will come from afar, And your daughters will be carried in the arms.
5 “Then you will see and be radiant, And your heart will thrill and rejoice; Because the abundance of the sea will be turned to you, The wealth of the nations will come to you.

The Messiah “breaks” the beast

However, the Messiah is still active in his government. Although it says, during the time of the beast, the Ancient of Days “makes a judgment in favor of the saints to possess the kingdom,” in Daniel 7:23, it also says the beast has to deal with the Prince of Princes (the Messiah) in Daniel 8:25. We see the beast “broken” by the Prince:

…. he [the beast] shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand [human means].

Since the Son of Man is in heaven in chapter 7, he would have to return to protect the saints against the beast in chapter 8.

Why Messiah not on earth when beast first attacks

In the 70 weeks prophesy, in Daniel 9:25 , it predicts that the Messiah shall be cut off (killed):

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Here, it appears that the Messiah will not be around when the beast (evil prince) comes to destroy the saints and the city, since he has been “cut off.”

If one looks to Micah, we see the rest of the explanation. The latter days begin in chapter 4, with the remnant returning, the nations coming against Israel, and the (spiritual) birth pangs begin. The The “season and a time” allowed by the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:12 seems to be over, and the main enemy, the Assyrian (beast) is back in chapter 5. This is a new restored Israel, whose horn is made of “iron,” and its hooves are made of “bronze.” (Micah 4:13) It is not the enslaved Israel that was in submission to the Romans. It is one ready for battle with the law firmly in place (Micah 4:2).

 

In Micah 5:2, it says

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

Traditionally, this has been interpreted as a description of the messiah’s predicted birthplace. But as one reviews the “current events” just described, it also takes on a spiritual meaning as well. Restored Israel is going through birth pangs for its Messiah. The one who was physically born there needs to show up “from everlasting.” The review of past and present come together in the next verse:

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he will he [Messiah] give them up, until the time [that] she [Israel] which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Finally peace with Messiah present on earth

Messiah was cut off in Daniel 9:26, but “not for himself,” so he is cut off for whom, and why? It says here in Micah 5:3 that the Messiah gave them up, or delivered them up [to be scattered] until the birth pangs started. He is waiting for them to cry out for him. This indicates there is an interruption in time. Now, Israel has travailed and brought forth physically in 1948, and spiritually, while under attack of her enemies. The presence of the faithful remnant brings forth the Messiah. This is a spiritual rebirth as well as a physical one. It is the return and the cry of the remnant that brings the Messiah back from everlasting, where He has been waiting for them. Finally, there is peace:

Micah 5:4-5 And he [Messiah] shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

Notice that it is a united effort of Messiah and his people that defeat the Assyrian. This is because the saints share in rule with their Messiah. They finally, and fully, understand and step into their spiritual birthright – the kingdom. The Messiah was predicted, then, to make 2 trips, in order to first establish his kingdom on a spiritual level, be “cut off” by his own people, and then return to establish it on a physical one, once the Jews accepted him.

However, that is not all. More about the timing of the 2 trips.

The “Messiah” was to come after the Diaspora was brought back to Israel. The “Branch” will come and save Israel.

Jer 23:3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jer 23:4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

Jer 23:5¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer 23:6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

A hint from Jesus that the diaspora was still in effect at his first coming

Mat 10:5¶These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24But he answered and said, I (Jesus) am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

A hint from apostle Peter about then current diaspora

1Pe 1:1¶Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers (pilgrims) scattered (diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter was writing to the Jews outside of Israel in what is modern day Turkey.

So, Did Jesus show up too soon?

No. As noted above, the kingdom first had to be received by the Son of Man. So, all Jesus was supposed to do the first time was obtain the kingdom from the Ancient of Days, which occurred after he returned to heaven, not while he was on earth. The Diaspora was still real when Jesus came as the Son of Man. So it was not “time” for the Messiah to defend Israel. He had to wait until all Israel was back in the land.

Once the saints received the kingdom from Jesus, they would have to defend it until His return. Again, there is a 2 trip concept here. The first trip was to obtain the kingdom, and establish it spiritually, putting it in the hands of the saints. The second trip was to protect the kingdom, and establish it physically on earth.

Final confirmation of Daniel by Isaiah.

Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall return to Zion.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high

*** The Jews are told that they will see the Lord eye to eye, that means in person, when the Lord returns to Zion. This implies that the Lord would have to be in physical form to be seen eye to eye. This means that the Lord is the servant- Messiah-Redeemer that they have been waiting for.

Because what you said nonsense. if God isnt part of reality, then he isnt real.

"Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?"
Malachi 2:10 - New International Version (©1984)

Indeed, they know OF him, but not him directly.

 

In Micah 5:2, it says

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

Traditionally, this has been interpreted as a description of the messiah’s predicted birthplace. But as one reviews the “current events” just described, it also takes on a spiritual meaning as well. Restored Israel is going through birth pangs for its Messiah. The one who was physically born there needs to show up “from everlasting.” The review of past and present come together in the next verse:

Micah 5:3 Therefore will he will he [Messiah] give them up, until the time [that] she [Israel] which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Finally peace with Messiah present on earth

Messiah was cut off in Daniel 9:26, but “not for himself,” so he is cut off for whom, and why? It says here in Micah 5:3 that the Messiah gave them up, or delivered them up [to be scattered] until the birth pangs started. He is waiting for them to cry out for him. This indicates there is an interruption in time. Now, Israel has travailed and brought forth physically in 1948, and spiritually, while under attack of her enemies. The presence of the faithful remnant brings forth the Messiah. This is a spiritual rebirth as well as a physical one. It is the return and the cry of the remnant that brings the Messiah back from everlasting, where He has been waiting for them. Finally, there is peace:

Micah 5:4-5 And he [Messiah] shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

And this [man] shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.

Notice that it is a united effort of Messiah and his people that defeat the Assyrian. This is because the saints share in rule with their Messiah. They finally, and fully, understand and step into their spiritual birthright – the kingdom. The Messiah was predicted, then, to make 2 trips, in order to first establish his kingdom on a spiritual level, be “cut off” by his own people, and then return to establish it on a physical one, once the Jews accepted him.

However, that is not all. More about the timing of the 2 trips.

The “Messiah” was to come after the Diaspora was brought back to Israel. The “Branch” will come and save Israel.

Jer 23:3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Jer 23:4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

Jer 23:5¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer 23:6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

A hint from Jesus that the diaspora was still in effect at his first coming

Mat 10:5¶These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mat 10:6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 15:24But he answered and said, I (Jesus) am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

A hint from apostle Peter about then current diaspora

1Pe 1:1¶Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers (pilgrims) scattered (diaspora) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Peter was writing to the Jews outside of Israel in what is modern day Turkey.

So, Did Jesus show up too soon?

No. As noted above, the kingdom first had to be received by the Son of Man. So, all Jesus was supposed to do the first time was obtain the kingdom from the Ancient of Days, which occurred after he returned to heaven, not while he was on earth. The Diaspora was still real when Jesus came as the Son of Man. So it was not “time” for the Messiah to defend Israel. He had to wait until all Israel was back in the land.

Once the saints received the kingdom from Jesus, they would have to defend it until His return. Again, there is a 2 trip concept here. The first trip was to obtain the kingdom, and establish it spiritually, putting it in the hands of the saints. The second trip was to protect the kingdom, and establish it physically on earth.

Final confirmation of Daniel by Isaiah.

Isa 52:8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall return to Zion.

Isa 52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high

*** The Jews are told that they will see the Lord eye to eye, that means in person, when the Lord returns to Zion. This implies that the Lord would have to be in physical form to be seen eye to eye. This means that the Lord is the servant- Messiah-Redeemer that they have been waiting for.

Because what you said nonsense. if God isnt part of reality, then he isnt real.

"Have we not all one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?"
Malachi 2:10 - New International Version (©1984)

Indeed, they know OF him, but not him directly.

 

OK, one bloke's view.

Five outspoken blow-hards doth NOT a movement make. Nor, I'll add, does creating a Tempest in a Toilet Bowl over their views constitute anything but noise, signifying little.

Sane people go merrily along believeing...and not believing...without thinking a whole lot more about it.

 

No, there are no used to be Christians.

God is reality, you just can't know the reality of the Spirit.

Micah 2:10 is not speaking of God as the Father. It is speaking of Abraham and the decendants spoken of as fathers, which make up Israel, through Isaac.

No, Chrisitians know God directly. And they know Jesus Christ directly.

Quantrill

 

The links given suppossedly proving Jesus wasn't the Messiah are done with the error of believing there was only one coming of Messiah.

They cast doubt due to time elements of certain events, but this is due to their confusion of the two comings.

They neglect the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled. And this is what I was saying. Jesus came, not in contridiction to the Old Testament, but in fulfillment of it.

Quantrill

 

Yes, there are.

I disagree.

No they dont, they only know of god.

 

No there are also specific details of the coming of the messiah Jesus did not fulfill.

And yet, as I have shown he didnt fulfill it.

 

I'm not a big fan of the "New Atheists" either. I think they are basically famous because they are divisive and angry, much like their counterparts within religion.
I don't believe in pulling punches about metaphysics, but it takes a particularly ignorant kind of individual to believe that religion is in and of itself a particular kind of danger to the human race. Without religion, people would still divide in meaningless ways, fight scientific progress to protect their beliefs and interests, and fight wars for resources and power while citing some "higher" ideals.

I think Harris talks in a nicer tone but often states some of the most radical positions.
He went so far as to back torture and to claim that it might be justifiable to kill some people for their beliefs.
He subscribes to the same fatally flawed "religion is a particular danger to humanity" philosophy and takes it to its radical extreme, successfully mirroring the craziest extremes of the Religious Right.

As someone who's mostly studied things like sociology and anthropology in relation to religion (rather than history, which is probably the fuzziest discipline in existence), I've come to some conclusions on religion that defy the "New Atheist" worldview:
1. Religion is a symptom of phenomena natural to the human brain, shaped by evolution for its value (mostly saving time and energy). As such it's ridiculous to look at it as a plausible alternative to get rid of it or even greatly reduce its presence.
2. Religions succeed by adapting to the environment. Sometimes this is done through inclusiveness, kindness, and loose translation/loose rules; other times through exclusiveness, hostility, and rigid dogma.
3. The correct unit of measure for a religious movement is much smaller than the religion (i.e. Islam, Christianity) and certainly a lot smaller than Religion. Fundamentalist, mainstream, and open sects exist in all religions.

People who treat religion as a disease ignore the underlying conditions that lead to religious movements becoming what they are. In fact, they ignore almost everything about human nature and actual institutional change. It's an anti-intellectual movement designed to make atheists feel special the way fundamentalism makes religious practitioners feel special.

Also it overlooks that most people will ind more allies between religions than within. As an atheistic humanist, I find I have more in common with Christians and Jews that support "social justice" ideals than with self-loving Randroids. Yet, Hitchens and his crew would call me to war against the religious humanitarians due to their allegedly inherent danger to humanity (personally I find the Randroids far more frightening).

 

Yes, and just like many other religious people I am offended by many such atrocities that have been committed in the name of religion, maybe even more so because I believe in God and find it offensive when I see His name being abused.

 

Faith = No answer of anything. Because you don't have the answers. Only a bleief. Period.

Obviously that atheists make questions and research answers, but never in the fantasy world. Also the myths of Thor and Odin give answers. Are them satisfactory? No. Are them fantasious. Completely. The bible give answers? Yes. Are them satisfactory? No. Are them fantasious? Yes, absolutely fantastic.

There are things where you can't search answers. And the religious books are one of these places wher you won't find answers.

 

You can disagree all you want. It won't change anything.

Quantrill

 

Your not listening. There are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't mean prophecies were not fulfilled at Christs first coming. They were.

Just because your ignorant as to the prophecies, doesn't mean they were not fulfilled.

And, as I said, your links simply confuse the first and second coming prophecies.

Quantrill

 

You are wrong. And, you assume there is no spiritual world. You assume there is only the physical world. You assume if there is a spiritual world you can detect through physical observation.

Your whole argument is an assumption. A faith.

The Christians faith is real, because God is real. The Christians faith works because God is there and has declared that by faith is He known. And so it works because God reveals Himself to the spirit and the eyes of the individual are opened to see and know. And they believe because they see and know.

That is the faith of the Chrilstian. Real.

Quantrill

 

But to be the messiah he had to fulfill all of them, or more, so the sources I provided say.

I can assure I'm not ignorant - you are just wrong.

You have not shown how. Besides, I'm an atheist, I dont care. You have shown a huge streak of denialism, so it seems pointless to continue discussion with you further on anything really. You just dent everything. I give a source, you say its wrong without any analysis. You make claims but never substantiate them, although one time you did in which case I refuted you WITH YOUR OWN SOURCE and you still denied my case. I dont have time for childish people that dont want to engage in actual discussion. You're a troll and nothing more.

 

Your logic is pathetic. You state his case is just faith, and so its wrong, and then you say your position is right because ...you have faith!! haha total hypocrisy. A total joke.

 

Again, your not listening. There are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. That doesn't mean Christ has not fulfilled prophecies. In other words, Christianity is in harmony and a fulfillment of the Old Testament. It is not contridictory to the Old Testament.

Your ignorant of what we are discussing, which is Biblical prophecy and Christianity fulfilling much of the Old Testament and being in harmony with it.

You haven't refuted anything. You just show a link and hope that does it. But it doesn't. I thought you said you were agnostic. Change your mind already?

Quantrill