My take on the whole situation involving possible charges against Trump

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by TCassa89, Mar 21, 2023.

  1. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    First thing's is first, the bigger issue isn't the hush payment itself, but rather the payment made to reimburse Michael Cohen for the hush money, and how Cohen falsely reported said payment as him being reimbursement for legal fees. This is where the offense becomes a felony, however, it seems more likely to me that the main offender in this crime was Michael Cohen himself (who already served his time), and not Trump. While it isn't unlikely that Trump was the decider and orchestrator of the hush payment, that's not the part of the exchange that is the felony. It is the falsified business document that is the felony. Yes, the hush payment may have been in violation of campaign finance regulations, but even if that is the case, that part isn't a felony offense.

    Personally, I do not believe Trump should be hit with charges, unless it can be proven that he agreed to this particular detail of the transaction as a means of covering everything up.. but even then so, it seems unlikely to me that he was the one who planned it

    We already know that the hush payment was made, because we literally heard the recorded phone call released 4 years ago where Trump asks Cohen if the payment should be made by cash or by check. Note that in this recording Trump was asking him how the payment should be made, and not telling him, indicating that Cohen was the one writing the playbook. One could also argue that Trump would have been less likely to know that said falsified business document was illegal. For this reason, if Trump is charged and found guilty, I would not expect him to get hit as hard as Cohen did. Worst case scenario for him if he is indicted and found guilty, I believe he will be made to pay a fine.. and that's about it

    Ultimately I do believe that if he committed a crime, he should be held accountable, however I don't believe this will have a negative impact on him politically, with the possible exception for if he is made to speak under oath. Again, we already know that hush payment did happen, but Trump has never admitted that publicly. If he has to speak under oath, he will be made to tell the truth about that payment for the first time, in front of everybody. That being said, at this point the only people who still believe him when he says there was no hush payment are his most zealous supporters. The thing about zealous supporters is they will believe whatever their leader tells them to believe. If he says under oath that he made the payment, and then turns back on it once he is no longer under oath, then his supporters will believe him. If he says the payment did happen, but it's not a big deal, then his supporters will believe him. If he says nothing further about it publicly and just ignores it, then his supporters will ignore it too. As for everyone else who already accepts he lied about the hush payment, they've already made up their mind on how they feel about it.

    So no.. I do not think this will have a significant impact politically, but I also don't believe that's what the decision should be based on anyway. I've heard people say they don't believe he should be charged because they think it will help him politically. To me, not charging someone because you are concerned it will help them politically is just as bad as charging them purely as an effort to hurt them politically. Both examples are using the justice system for political motivation. The justice system should be about justice and nothing else.

    If Trump did commit a crime, then yes.. he should be charged. If he didn't commit a crime, then no charges should be made against him... and it's as simple as that
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
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  2. Rampart

    Rampart Banned

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    nothing, felony or not, involving a female will hurt trump politically. even the evangelicals consider trump's degenerate sex life to be his god given right as america's divinely anointed alpha male.

    those of us who recognize that this is hogwash aren't voting for him anyway.

    "i will win unless they find a dead girl or a live boy in my bed" edwin edwards

    trump could get away with either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  3. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A billionaire having lots of sex with different women? OMG! Say it isn't so! I've never heard of rich powerful men ever doing such a thing. Also, his voters don't really care about his personal life. They care about his helpful policies. Most folks on the left only care if the person they are voting for is someone they'd like to go get a beer with and don't even know their policies half the time.
     
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  4. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    Anyone remember the female who would visit JFK at the White House? The Secret Service let her in and out the back door. But JFK was a democrat and loved by the media. Trump is a republican and hated by the powerful D.C. elites and the media. Maybe Paramount Studios could make a movie titled "Get Trump".
     
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  5. Alwayssa

    Alwayssa Well-Known Member

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    I agree that if charges were filed, it would not hurt Trump politically, at least with the GOP nomination, but in the general election, it may hurt him among independents. Given Trump's crass nature, the bigger block he has to overcome is women with college degrees living in the suburbs. They still don't like him and still prefer, begrudgingly, Biden over Trump, but just barely.

    I have not seen all the evidence involving the hush money and have not kept up with the news since it is mainly in NY State and nowhere else. I am waiting to see if the grand jury will indict him or not. My prediction is 70/30 that he will be indicted. But there is also a possibility, 30% chance that he will not.
     
  6. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    I think he was commenting more on his religious base.. but what this thread is actually about is the falsified business documents. Stormy Daniels isn't the first woman Trump has cheated on his wife with. Trump has been married multiple times, and has cheated on each and every one of his spouses, the reason why Stormy Daniels is the one being talked about specifically is because this is the only one of his affairs that involves falsified business documents.

    In short, we're not talking about Trump being criminally charged for cheating on his wife, we're talking about him being criminally charged for his possible involvement in falsified business documents. That's the little detail that could be a felony
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2023
  7. Chrizton

    Chrizton Well-Known Member

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    Settlements like this generally are not tax deductible so regardless of how the lawyer put it on his books or bills, the client knew what the money was for and had a duty to break it apart on his. Now the sweet karma off all this is that Trump's tax cuts screwed people with bodily injury settlements by making them taxable to the recipient at face value when they had previously been tax exempt. Taxes for thee but not for me is apparently the MAGA way.
     
  8. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    If Trump is brought to trial for this hush payment he will not be made to speak. Defendents do not have to testify against themselves. That is a Constitutional Right.

    Also, John Edwards, a Democrat, was charged in 2012 with campaign finance violation for the same reason. Hush money to a mistress. And he used actual campaign money. He was acquitted. LINK: John Edwards Was the Last Presidential Candidate Charged for Campaign Finance Violations (businessinsider.com) Yet Trump used personal money.

    As for Cohen, he could have fought the campaign charges...if that was the only charges against him. However, they had more on him than what has been reported. Including 5 counts of tax evasion, 1 count of false statement to the IRS. LINK: full.pdf (nyt.com) So who wants to make a bet that the DA came along and said "hey look, you plead guilty to all of this, including this campaign finance violation, agree to pay restitution and we'll make sure that instead serving the 60 some odd years that all of these charges would get you, you'll only have to serve 3 years...." They have him dead to rights on the tax evasion, he knows this. So why not go for such a plea deal? What would you do? Serve 65 years, pay fines and restitution....or serve 3 years and pay restitution and still have money when you get out? (this btw is one of the reasons why I'm against plea deals being used period)
     
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  9. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    Trump bragged about funding his own campaign. It doesn't matter that it was his money. He was spending his own money on the campaign.

    What matters is the purpose of him spending the money. If he wanted to pay her off to keep Melania from finding out, he would have done it years before he ran for office. He did it right before the election, so it's pretty obvious he spent that money to help his campaign. That makes it campaign money.

    That's not even why he's in trouble though. He is in trouble in NYC because he lied about the payment calling it legal fees. He lied on documents he submitted to the government.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
  10. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Putting aside the question of illegality there's the matter of Dear Leader's act to keep damning information from the voting public weeks before the election. An act that was of special significance in the wake of the Access Hollywood fallout.
    Trump Considered Quitting 2016 Election Over Tape Leak—Kellyanne Conway
    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-tru...2016-race-over-tapes-kellyanne-conway-1708925

    ‘Mother Is Not Going to Like This’: The 48 Hours That Almost Brought Down Trump
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...carnage-excerpt-access-hollywood-tape-227269/

    Had Daniels gone public with her story of an adulterous affair with a porn movie actress just a few months after Melania gave birth, the double whammy would have done serious damage to Don's hopes of winning the presidency. Defrauding voters by keeping the story out of the headlines was, at the least, an unethical act of betrayal of the people's trust.

    I recognize members of The Following don't care about Trump's acts of deceit, the lies, the crimes, the incompetence, the buffoonery, the grifting, the boorish behavior, the corruption, the nepotism, but the majority of the country does.
     
  11. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    It’s as if you didn’t bother reading the beginning of the OP… how very strange

    Anyway, I’ll repeat it again

    "First thing's is first, the bigger issue isn't the hush payment itself, but rather the payment made to reimburse Michael Cohen for the hush money, and how Cohen falsely reported said payment as him being reimbursement for legal fees. This is where the offense becomes a felony, however, it seems more likely to me that the main offender in this crime was Michael Cohen himself (who already served his time), and not Trump. While it isn't unlikely that Trump was the decider and orchestrator of the hush payment, that's not the part of the exchange that is the felony. It is the falsified business document that is the felony. Yes, the hush payment may have been in violation of campaign finance regulations, but even if that is the case, that part isn't a felony offense"
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
  12. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    This is a far as I could go. Even if all true (which it isn't) where is the crime let alone the felony??
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    And by that insane logic he couldn't see his own money for anything. Other than legitimate campaign expenses. Sorry several bridges too far. And it is a misdemeanor. And as such way over the statute of limitations.

    Now the silly part in all of this is that if NDA were illegal half of Congress would be in jail and most of them Democrats. Worse if you track the hypocrisy until the minute Trump announced for president no one gave a crap about his sex life least of all Democrats.
     
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  14. WhoDatPhan78

    WhoDatPhan78 Banned

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    No, if he bought McDonalds for lunch, you couldn't argue that the point was to further his political campaign.

    If he was spending money to prevent damage to his campaign, it was campaign spending.

    It's not really difficult to understand.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2023
  15. Just A Man

    Just A Man Well-Known Member

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    Seems to me Pres Bill Clinton paid Paula Jones a large sum of money. Then there was the Juanita Broaddrick who claimed Clinton raped her while Hillary tried to shut her up. And remember Jennifer Flowers and Clinton. Too many males in politics are whore-hoppers and too many females are looking for a meal ticket. So many females, so little time, we'll never know of all the peccadillos, and generally we shouldn't care.
     
  16. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    I mean... Michael Cohen has literally already been charged and convicted for this crime... this isn't something that is up for debate, you are objectively wrong
     
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  17. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member

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    Sandy Shanks said:
    "Porn star and director Stormy Daniels met Donald Trump at a celebrity golf tournament in Lake Tahoe in July 2006, and the two allegedly began an affair.

    "He was married to Melania Trump at the time, who had just given birth to their son Barron.
    **************************************************************************************************************************************************

    Trump imagines himself to be a T.V. star.

    The Guardian reports, "Donald Trump has told advisers that he wants to be handcuffed when he makes an appearance in court, if he is indicted by a Manhattan grand jury for his role in paying hush money to adult film star Stormy Daniels, multiple sources close to the former president have said.

    "The former president has reasoned that since he would need to go to the courthouse and surrender himself to authorities for fingerprinting and a mug shot anyway, the sources said, he might as well turn everything into a “spectacle”."

    Trump is a complete jerk. What does that say about his followers?

    The [Republican] Senate Intelligence Committee on Tuesday [4/21/2020] reaffirmed its support for the U.S. intelligence community’s conclusion that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 presidential election with the goal of putting Donald Trump in the Oval Office. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/...rms-russia-aimed-to-help-trump-in-2016-198171

    Vladimir Putin knew his man.

    Since he became our President, Trump has created chaos wherever he goes. About to be indicted on multiple criminal charges, Trump has managed to seriously endanger the American political system, and his followers are giddy with the harm he has caused.

    Republican Senators and Congressmen strongly defend him while ignoring the crimes he has committed.
     
  18. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member

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    Sandy Shanks said:
    Republican Senators and Congressmen strongly defend him while ignoring the crimes he has committed.
    ***************************************************************************************************************************************************

    ABC reports, "Prosecutors in the special counsel's office have presented compelling preliminary evidence that former President Donald Trump knowingly and deliberately misled his own attorneys about his retention of classified materials after leaving office, a top federal judge wrote Friday in a sealed filing.

    "U.S. Judge Beryl Howell wrote last week that prosecutors in special counsel Jack Smith's office had made a "prima facie showing that the former president had committed criminal violations," and that attorney-client privileges invoked by two of his lawyers could therefore be voided."

    Trump's lawyers appealed the ruling.

    CNN reports, "Former President Donald Trump’s defense attorney Evan Corcoran is scheduled to testify Friday before the grand jury investigating classified documents found at Mar-a-Lago after a new order from a federal appeals court.

    "The US DC Circuit Court of Appeals said that Corcoran must provide additional testimony and turn over documents about the former president as part of the criminal investigation into possible mishandling of classified documents.

    "The source said Trump’s side is unlikely to appeal to the Supreme Court."

    Note: The Appeals Court moved at light speed.

    "The announcement from a panel of three judges in the appeals court – less than a day after Trump sought to put Corcoran’s testimony on hold – adds momentum to the special counsel investigation as it seeks to secure evidence that could make or break a federal criminal case against Trump," CNN.

    Trump's followers are not aware of any of this.
     
  19. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No one cares about Trump's sex life. The left pretends to care because they dont like his policies, just like the right pretended to care about Clinton's blowjobs because they didnt like his policies. No one cared about JFKs degenerecy because his policies were popular on both sides. generally Americans understand that sexual deviancy isn't a political issue. Its just that its a convenient excuse to manufacture a moral high ground from which to launch political attacks.
     
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  20. Kal'Stang

    Kal'Stang Well-Known Member

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    So, you have a lawyer pay someone to sign an NDA...what else would you call it?
     
  21. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    Evidently that last post did not work, so I will explain it again in a way that is easier to understand

    Donald Trump is not the one who paid Daniels, Michael Cohen was, under an agreement that Trump would later reimburse Michael Cohen once Trump's presidential campaign was over. The reason why Cohen payed the hush payment and Trump agreed to pay him back was to bypass campaign regulation laws which require full discloser on transaction that are made for the purpose of influencing a candidates performance in an election. As agreed, Trump paid Cohen back in January of 2017, but when this exchange happened, Cohen falsely reported the transaction as legal fees that Trump was reimbursing him for. This falsified business document is considered to be a felony, and landed Michael Cohen in a lot of hot water.

    Once again, the latter transaction is the bigger issue, not the initial payment made to Daniels. It is using a falsified business document to cover up a potentially illegal transaction is considered a felony. The initial hush payment transaction is not considered a felony (even though it might be in violation of campaign spending laws), it is the falsified business document that is considered a felony. We're not talking about falsifying the payment made to Daniels, we're talking about falsifying the payment that Trump made to Cohen
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023
  22. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    It clearly seemed you were talking about crimes and felonies by Trump, not Cohen. Even so Cohen's crime with the hush money was fabricated and he pled guilty to a non crime in hopes of getting better treatment for his other real crimes.
     
  23. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    Legal fees always include both the lawyer's time and work product and the lawyer's expenses in handling the case or affairs of the client.
     
  24. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    No, I never said it was Trump who did it, I said it was Cohen, and I said that Trump should only be charged if it can be proven that he agreed to the falsified business document. I also stated that even if that were the case, it is more likely that Cohen was the one writing the playbook on that transaction, and not Trump.
     
  25. TCassa89

    TCassa89 Well-Known Member

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    We're not talking about legal fees, nor are we talking about paying for time and work. What we are talking about is Cohen using his own personal funds to make the hush payment, and then being reimbursed at a later date. Cohen made the payment in October of 2016, and he was reimbursed in January of 2017. The timing and order of the reimbursement was also intentional
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2023

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