Nigeria imposes State enforced religion

You missed my point entirely.

You don't seem to realize that I'm not trying to imprison anyone for being religious, yet you claim atheists are doing the same thing to religious people.

You seem to be feeling oppressed over something that isn't happening.

 

Bingo. No one is trying to imprison Christians.

 

References are made to religion throughout the article.

As I have said before on PF, religion makes it easier for people to hold onto their bigotries. Especially because most enjoy the untouchable nature of religion to protect people from questioning their beliefs.

 

Whar I am claiming is that atheists are:

a. Use homosexual rights as a rallying call, very often to bash other faith about - ignoring the complexity of the animosity that myriad reasons for its rejection.

b. As the purpose is merely to bash religious people, and as we see in this thread, meaningful discussion on the topic is often simply not possible.

Given that it is the topic of this thread, and you are whining about how religion feels oppressed by lifting a partial post out of context to convey something that was clearly never intended ...

I would say that pretty much supports the case being made.

 

Agh, yes they are.

http://www.persecution.org/2011/09/28/video-285-christians-arrested-in-six-months-in-iran/

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

Funny Christians get locked up when we break the law, or when our values conflict with a different countries values just like homosexuals.

But of course, if we acknowledge these easily found and verified facts, well, then we would not be able to use this to bash Christians would we?

Nor indeed, does it appear that anyone wishes to actualy discuss what is happening in NIGERIA - because ALL Christians are clearly effected by a country that has Christians, Muslims, and animists - who are nearly all universally in support of the law in Nigeria ...

Now that contrasts sharply with things like the Anglican Church on this side of the pond ... another fact that atheist eager to bash, but not discuss, are keen to avoid.

Another case in point.

 

Empowered Christians often bash themselves, as they are doing in Nigeria. They make horrible, hateful legislation at the altar of the faith.
When my car is in Neutral, no matter how much gas I give it, it doesn't go anywhere.

 

More hypocrisy. Atheism's own prejudices continue to blind them.

You didn't even read the story did you?

The story makes ONE referrence to sharia law - that is it. It also makes SEVERAL referrences to animosity toward homosexuals that is prevelant throughout the greater African community of Nations.

But of course, in the close minded world of atheism, ONLY religion can be causing this.

Ergo, when someone points out the tribal nature, and male lineage, and how homosexuality undermines that traditional CULTURE ...

Well, even though the story clearly referrences African Culture, YOU don't see it - but everyone else is the one wit the prejudice problem?

That is three in a row.

 

Nigeria is not merely 'Christian' is it?

Now, look at Muslim, Christian, Animist, and then look at strong African Cultural traditions in which homosexuality undermines their values.

Atheists make nothing but hatred, animosity, catigation, and blame on the alter of their faith.

No need to let little thinks like easily verified facts get in the way - like religious demographics.

"Based on a 2009 World Religious survey (Mapping out the Global Muslim Population) 50.4% of Nigeria's population were Muslims,[10] they are mainly found in the northern part of the country. Majority of Nigerian Muslims are Sunni. Christians are the second largest religious group making up 48.2% of the population, they dominate in the Middle Belt and southern part of the country, while adherents of other religions make up 1.4% of the population.[11]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria

Here is a hypothetical for the religious castigators, why does the US have a HIGHER percentage of Christians than Nigeria, and yet, it is going in the opposite direction from Nigeria? Well, answering that question means you probably will not be able to use this to bash Christians, so, like Nigerian Culture, I would imagine that this will enhgender the same amount of enlightened and learned responses from atheists - zero.

 

Because the founders understood the danger of religion as a basis for legislation and made it their very first amendment to prevent it being an oppressive force in the lives of a free people. It forced it to ever remain a free choice of free people, not a noose that could be tightened at the whim of the politicians.

 

How can it? It is driven by a Christian Culture that seeks to emabarass itself, correct?

Well, here is a looksee at the Nigerian Constitution.

http://www.nigeria-law.org/ConstitutionOfTheFederalRepublicOfNigeria.htm

Tell me, which part of that document is so radicaly different that it allows the Christians there to be stupid, backward embarassments, but the ones on this side of the pond ... somehow anything we do right is not our fault correct?

The old dambed if we do and dambed if we do not?

There is a tangible difference in our individualistic society and a tribal/familial aspect of Nigerian Culture, but, exactly as predicted, no atheist will touch that aspect of the issue, because then they could not use this issue as a club to bash people.

 

Look in your own backyard first.

Same-sex marriage isn't recognized by the United States either. They can't even get married in Cali.

So, if you really care about the right of homosexuals to get married, and not just looking for something to attempt to slur religions, shouldn't you be help protesting for the US government to recognize gay marriage and for California to allow gay marriage, rather than try and "force" your views on another culture?

Is this wrong? Sure, you may think it is. But in Nigeria, they probably don't and their opinions have more of an impact that people not living there

سلام

 

Isn't that exactly what is happening here? Progress continues to be made.

 

Yes, t definitely appear that a militant group is attempting to force a moral decision on sexuality on the entire world without thinking it through it the slightest.

Apparently, offend everyone who disagrees is the way to move things forward and generate consensus?

 

I just think more and more people are embarrassed by some people's attempts to deny others their pursuit of happiness as they see it.
No one is forcing any moral decision on anyone. They are simply defending their right to come to their own.

 

So you think not murdering and imprisoning gays ofr getting married will cause their culture to be destroyed?

 

What evidence do you have to support this claim? Do you think me disagreeing with your religion is bashing it?

I disagree. The purpose of working toward equal rights for LGBT is not to bash religion. It is to attain equal rights for the LGBT community. It's not always all about you.

What part of my words seem like whining to you? Your posts seem overtly aggressive toward anyone and anything that disagrees with you in the slightest.

Yet you think everyone else is standing in the way of meaningful discussion.

I honestly can't decide if you are trolling or not.

 

Because you are not discussing the topic are you?

The topic would be Nigeria and its culture (Christians and Muslim)and why it imposed this ban.

You are talkng about how Christians feel persecuted.

You do the math.

It is when you justify all resistance to your lifestyle in termsof anti-religion, even though there are churches that preach tolerance of the lifestyle.

It is when you block any substantive discussion on the LGBT culture by loudly denoucing it as prejudice - effectively wall papering over the communities issues.

I find it continuously amazing that atheists speak exactly the same way I do and worse to Christians while atheists sit back and nod, claiming that this is good insight and examination. However, when someone holds a line of inquiry toward atheism, asks atheists tough questions, well, now it is melodramtically aggressive.

You tell me how I should respond to someone who takes a claim about Nigerian Culture, and how homosexuality seem aimed directly at the culture ... and then turns around and calls me full hate and prejudice - how I feel persecuted?

How exactly do you think people are going to respond to that?

And now we are talking about how screwed up another Christian poster is? What is wrong with atheists? You consider yourselves ratioanlists, and yet ... the topic is Nigerian law and culture and you are trying to figure out whether everyone who disgrees with your assessment is a troll?

Well, that is indeed modern atheism.

 

I responded to your post defending the action by saying that christians are persecuted in the same ways by atheists. I usually won't take the time to argue with you anymore, but I think that statement is undefendable. Also, I'm not advocating a forced change in their culture. I just think what they are doing is wrong, but I also understand it isn't up to me to educate the world.

If people are giving religious reasons, then I have to respond with "anti-religion" now don't I? If Someone came up to me and said "Hey, I don't think gays should marry because I don't want to think about 2 dudes doing each other in the butt and I don't want to have to explain it to my kid".

I wouldn't tell that person "The bible is wrong, so gays should be allowed to marry." Much in the same manner that I would not tell a muslim that.

Instead, I explain to him that it isn't my fault that he can't look at 2 guys without thinking about buttsex, just like it isn't my problem he doesn't want to talk to his stupid, ugly little kid for 10 minutes.

Such as?

Are you trying to illustrate a double standard to make us think you are being further persecuted? Poor poor christians. Forever persecuted in their own minds.

If someone told you that you weren't allowed to be with the person you love under penalty of imprisonment because of your gender, how would you respond?

Nope, just you. The topic is mass descrimination against gay people. That is what I am talking about. If you think I made an off-topic post, report it and asked that it be deleted.

When viewed through religious glasses maybe...

 

No you didn't. You responded by jumping into a discussion by deliberately misquoting me and accusing Christians in general of believing they are being persecuted.

What you skipped, and indeed continue to skip, is the reality of a young and emotional atheist screaming about the need to respect other values and cultires and calling the failure to do so criminal, evil even! And then turning around and doing the exact same thing to Nigerians, Muslims, and Christians.

If you think what Nigeria is doing is wrong, then why not make a case for that rather than jump in an accuse an entire religion of believing it is persecuted?

That would seem to make sense, and is indeed what I have asked several atheists to do on this subject -- to no avail.

And thene there is the actuality of discussion where you have surmised that all resistance to homosexual lifestyle is either religious in origin or victorian disliake of two men having butt sex.

Once again, the Nigerian construct and reasons for the resistance to homosexuality is stated - and avoided by atheists who seem incapable of an actual discussion on this one. Apparently these strawmen arguements will have to suffice.

And right back to it after denying it.

Once again, I am saying that atheists have no standards, and as such are incapble of making accurate assessments on anything. Why, in the same post you can deny the very thing you are doing.

Now that takes a special kind of absolutely normal atheism.

If I were married and someone told me it was adultry to sleep with other women, and immoral, guess what - it still is. Even if I convince myself that I love the other woman, if I am married, its still adultry. If I convince myself that I am in love with a horse, well, I should not be denied my sexual appetites - because to do so is a human rights violation?

It comes down to whether or not sex controls your life.

And in Nigeria, its the family that matters, so whether illegal of not, if you come out in Nigeria, what you are saying is, "I am rejecting my honor, my family, and everything that generations of my ancsestors have built in order to have butt sex with another man who is doing the same."

I.e. putting sex over duty.

Victim again?

Suddenly Nigeria is all of Christendom is it? Avoiding the Anglican Church and moderate Christians again are we?

Nope, take a good look at the thread. It is fact.

And it is modern atheism. Its all about bashing religion, because you guys have no standards and have to define yourself in comparison to others. Being self worshippers, hese comaprisons inevitably have to result in you being better than everyone else - as the self is the center and greatest thing.

Do you enjoy it when I stab back at your religion in the same manner you do? Is that relevant to the topic? Or is that too aggressive for you?

How about you just make a case that is relevant to your view that Christianity caused this law? By all means, lets see an actual comparison of Christian countries and their attitudes toward homosexuality from atheism. It simpy will not happen.

 

I did not misquote you. That is a direct quote and I gave a link to the post it came from. Also, I said some christians, I didn't say all chrisitians in general.

What you seem to be missing is that him criticizing a law is not throwing them in jail for loving someone of the wrong gender. You are trying to make the argument that it is oppressive to criticize people... for being oppressive!

I see your logic but it is seriously flawed.

I didn't accuse an entire religion of being persecuted. Quote me where I did if you are going to make that accusation.

It seems self explanatory to me. What part of "throwing people in jail for loving the wrong gender" do you not see as oppressive?

I can't seem to give an example without you claiming I am talking about every religious person collectively. That is your strawman.

It is ignorant to think that atheists have no standards. I have tried to explain that standards come on an individual level, and not as a group. The idea that I am an atheists has very little to do with how I live my day to day life. I don't turn to atheism in times of crisis. I don't draw strength from faith.

I have standards, but they aren't standards shared by atheists.

You are starting with a very simple premise... being married.

Ok, now remember, you can't get married, so the above example of adultery wouldn't have been an issue because you couldn't get married to start with.

Try again?

What can I do to make you understand that when i am speaking about part of a group, I am not referring to the whole group?

When religious reasons are given for imprisoning part of the population based on sexual preference, then I will criticize those reasons and the religion they come from. If you aren't trying to use religion to do that, then my criticism doesn't apply to you or the way you practice your religion.

Atheism isn't a religion, it is a lack of a religion. Stab all you want, you are slicing at a void. I figure eventually you will get tired of it and go to sleep.

This is going to be my last response to you in this thread. I'll let you have the last word.

 

http://waccglobal.org/en/20052-chri.../530-Media-and-fundamentalism-in-Nigeria.html

This article will give you the basis for the position. It's pretty clear.

 

Yes, you did. You took a partial quote cut off in mid sentence and presented in a context that was never meant. That has been clarified again, and the original intent clarifed as well.

Some atheists are just stubborn, as if admitting fault means they will be sucked into a black hole or something?

No you are passing jusdgement over the law because it conflicts with the moral compass you cannot explain.

Its simple:

Thesis:

Supporting evidence:

Rebuttal of common positions:

Restated conclusion:

Try it. Buyt running around telling people that their arguement is seriously flawed when you cannot, and indeed are not, even making a logical arguement (merely an appeal to emotion), then indeed - you have no case.

Logic is a standard, so its abscence is easy to ddiscern by those who ACTUALLY apply the standard rather than just declaring everything they believe to be logical.

Oh, you didn't:

And the inetnt of that was clearly deineated how? The word some? I know, I know, you atheists are always correct no matter what, so when people take issue with these things - its shocking. Most people call it flame bait, because the intent is not to debate, merely draw an emotional response.

Are you going to mention Nigerian Culture or continue to pretend that all of Christendom is monolithic?

You can love a man without having sex with him.

You can be married and have strong feelings for another woman, and not have sex with her.

You can have strong feeling, indeed love a dog, and not have to sex with it.

You are nbot talking about love, you are talking about sex.

See above victim. Everyone is tired of watching one atheist after another attempt to debate and then watch it turn into a defense of their supposed honor.

See if you can stick to the topic, which is not how thin skinned atheists are.

Oh, you have a set of declared and punblished standards, a doctrine, do you? Because in other contexts you atheists, in total, will assure me have no doctrine or standards whatsoever.

In fact, this is a perfect example of a lack of standards, because with one hand you assure us that you have no doctrine, with other you assure us you have standards (you just can't spell them out for some reason).

Your standards appear to whatever pops into your head, and that is dangerous.

No, you don't draw strength from faith in what is right, but from continual comparison to others, leaving your faults and sins unaddressed and unacknowledged.

There is a downside to having a doctrine and set of rules, there is an down side to NOT having these things. Not that you will ever see a cost benefits analysis from atheists on the subject though.

Oh, we should allow polygamy then? That would solve the adultry problem then, correct?

And if people pointed out that polygamy usually devolves into the abuse and exploitation of women - well, clearly they are just descriminatory and evil. How dare they have a different sexual value, or be intolerant, of whatever I percieve is right - bt cannot explain why it is right.

Maybe you could address Nigerian Culture and how EVERYTHING passes down through the male offspring, including familiy honor, etc. Homosexuality fundamentally undermines that system - and there is nothing wrong with the system is there?

Instead, you just keep bashing Christianity.

The ONLY religious reason given in the OP is sharia law. How is that 'MY' faith?

There are several referrences to the prevalence of anti-homosexuality in greater African Culture.

Its nice to see how atheists read this and see, "YOUR Christian values are screwed up!"

You are entitled to your own opinion, its conclusion is faith based - its conduct ritualized. I'll call it whatever I want to.

The topic is not this.

Well, then maybe an atheist who actually wants to discuss the topic will show up, rather than the collective bashing I see here.

And of course, as you began with, the reason this is stopping is not because you have a weak arguement, its because I am flawed for standing up to you.

Atheism, nice religion.

 

Well, how about you make it, so I can debate you and not some article?

Not too mention I am glad your source blames the Pentacostal Church, but the fact remians that most Nigerians are Muslim.

The three main churches are Protestant (all lumped together which includes Pentacostalism), Roman Catholic, and the Church if Nigeria (which is the single largest denomination - and results from having split off from the Anglican Church over the issue of homosexuality).

Now, perhaps you could actually rebut the position I gave rather than just blindly bash religion. We are not all Pentacostal. The reasons for this ban are far more cultural than religious.

 

I'm not bashing religion.
I'm showing the overbearing influence the Pentacostal church has had on Nigeria.
The real problem is fundamentalism, regardless of whether it comes from Islam or Christianity. That and man's constant need for power, which is ultimately all this is really about. That's why the Congressional Christians from our country made such a push in Nigeria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fellowship_(Christian_organization)

This will give you a nice overview of the group who has tried mightily to influence Nigerian politics.

 

And I am pointing out that this is impossible given the religious demographics.

Further, I am again pointing to Nigerian Culture as teh culprit, and neither point are addressed by you.

Ergo, I am stating that I believe your intent is simply to find a way to make it Christianity's faut in a Muslim majority country - which is exactly what you are doing. Isn't it?

Oh, but you are assuring us that this is not the case ...