ObamaCare may be defunded

It appears that there is about to be a choice made between defunding ObamaCare, or keeping the government up and running; but that the two will be made mutually exclusive.

Here is a bit on the subject from The Hill:

Here is the link: Government shutdown looms over ObamaCare - The Hill - covering Congress, Politics, Political Campaigns and Capitol Hill | TheHill.com

 

How would defunding stop it by the ACA? States expanding Medicaid must get the funding, the fines all kick in nothing can stop that and they could still set-up exchanges but might need to charge insurers to implement it with a small fee to be on them.

 

If a program is defunded, it is essentially the same as its being repealed...

 

No it isn't you can stop it to some degree but the IRS has the authority to collect the taxes, penalties and the HHS a mandate to do it and if states expand Medicaid that funding must be provided its a joint program the states could demand funding in court if they try to pull it. Its a joint program the ACA set an income standard if a state follows that it is obeying the rules you cannot deny legitimate funding. And several states are doing the Medicaid expansion including California.

Anyway it will never pass the White House if it gets that far so no need to worry.

 

If it is defunded, it will be widely ignored; and the (highly authoritatian) IRS simply could not enforce any mandate against hundreds of millions of Americans who no longer recognize the validity of ObamaCare...

You may be correct about this; in which case, the alternative is for Republicans to shut down the federal government, and see if the Democrats can successfully blame the GOP for the shutdown, as they have done in the past.

A prediction: Either ObamaCare will be entirely defunded, or the federal government will be shut down later this year. But for both ObamaCare to receive congressional funding and the federal to continue functioning without a shutdown is just about as likely as, say, one's creating a figure that is simultaneously both square and circular, in my opinion...

 

Here's how to do it...

Portman: No Funds for Obamacare Individual Mandate -- ‘I Would Support That’
July 26, 2013 -- Senator Rob Portman (R-Ohio) said that if there is a vote on an appropriations bill that would prohibit funding for the individual mandate in Obamacare, he would support it.

See also:

Sen. Sessions: We Should Do Everything We Can to Undo Obamacare
July 26, 2013 -- Senator Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) said that members of Congress must do everything in their power to block the individual mandate in President Obama's signature health care law from going into effect in 2014.

 

And if the IRS does enforce the taxes and the only issue is there is no support health care law in place, the IRS to be frank is not generally afraid of anyone in government and they have a tax to collect they can argue they are just doing their job if the tax is to end Congress would need to repeal it. And if the taxes are going in the law if funded how can you defund it with funds built into the law. And added to that regulatory powers are still there they could add a fee per person to allow insurers to be on an exchange that could fund exchanges. They could do all kinds of dirty tricks between them and the HHS.

And there is another issue what if states expanded Medicaid and insist the funding go through they can go to court and say we are complying with the ACA, the Federal government has to meet its obligations now. And their Congress members are unlikely to allow a repeal or ending funding that is not a small bloc in Congress.

 

In all of the above, there is no direct reply to my basic premise, viz.: If there is widespread agreement among Americans that the law has been rendered invalid; and if the IRS, despite that, issues fines to those Americans who do not comply with the law; and if most of those Americans should then refuse to pay said fines...how might the IRS possibly enforce those fines?

Note: It would be better if you would attempt to answer the question directly, rather than you digressing into mere talking points...

 

Lets see the IRS cannot imprison but can go after tax refunds, dock peoples paychecks and hit their credit rating sending it to collections or sell the debt to a third party debt collection company all are things they do now like I said the IRS is afraid of no one its likely the most powerful agency with broad powers in the government dealing in non-security areas.

You cannot defund a law when its funded by the taxes and fees the law has in place, without repealing the funding mechanism - good luck if the Democrats get Hillary or someone into the White House or can take control of Congress just one of the two houses. Medicaid if states expand must be funded the states can easily win in court they said it was optional if a state opts in Medicaid funding is set by law failure would mean a lawsuit to get the dollars very likely but the new rules apply if states follow the law.

 

It is rather difficult to understand run-on sentences.

Still, as regarding the first sentence (at least, the part that I could decipeher), it is certainly true that the IRS has the power to go after people's tax refunds. But it could not dock employees' paychecks in the private sector; and that accounts for most American workers.

Moreover, I doubt that any third-party collection agency would be successful, if the law were generally considered a nullity...

 

Doing something to obstruct Obamacare is necessary for the GOP electioneering efforts in 2016.

The economy is not going to be their big platform issue in 2016, because we'll be even better off than we are now, if not almost fully recovered.

Between 2014-2016, some of the most beneficial parts of Obamacare will be implemented, and if 2016 rolls around...and the economy isn't the socialist nightmare the GOP warned of...and Obamacare is helping people, and becomes popular........the GOP will be left with a record of trying to prevent all that.

The GOP needs something big to go wrong between now and 2016...especially because the scandals didn't do the damage they hoped. Has anyone noticed how little the GOP talks about the economy today?

 

I think there are more options than that.

The Republicans could fund the government in multiple spending bills, isolating the Obamacare funding into a separate bill, and basically passing everything but that. Then it will be on the Dems in the Senate to vote against the rest of the government funding.

They could just add to the bill holding off the implementation of Obamacare for one or two years. Since the exchanges and a lot of other moving parts isn't ready, this might be tempting for some Senate Democrats. Obama basically did something similar by fiat.

The House Republicans could offer to fund Obama's infrastructure and jobs bill with the funds that are not spent on Obamacare implementation.

It's still a bit early to see how this will shake out.

 

Sure they can go to court, get a court order to collect, go to employer and dock pay. Civil penalties are not barred just criminal ones. And they can go after bank accounts and pull money from those.

 

To suggest that we will be "even better off" in 2016 than we are now is really a rather low hurdle to attempt to clear. (After all, the economic growth rate for the last quarter was shown as 1.7 percent--actually, 1.3 percent, prior to the administration's recent revision of the way GDP is to be measured.)

Either way, such a growth rate, five years after the official end of the recession, is...well, downright anemic. To phrase it as charitably as possible.

Actually, the cotton-candy portion of ObamaCare has already been rolled out...uh, "implemented." It is the eat-your-spinach part that is yet to come...

 

My foray into this debate….

I have had many conversations with many healthcare professionals that have an intimate knowledge of what the new healthcare law really entails, how it really works, how it’s really being paid for, and what it will really mean to most Americans.

Having said that, 98% of them love it and can’t wait for the entire law to be implemented while a very small percentage of those I talked to have completely fallen into the black hole we all know to be “Fox News”

I don’t think it will be defunded and I hope it doesn’t get defunded but in these new, polarizing, do whatever it takes to destroy the president to gin up your base atmosphere…………… anything can happen.

And the slamming to begin in……..5…….4…….3…….2……………

 

No slammings, but I find it interesting that you find 98% of health professionals that you come in contact with it support it. That's like a Cuban election. There are winners and losers (most of the country) under this plan, so maybe you've found a concentrated number of winners.

 

I know why the Republicans are trying so hard to stop it simple mathematics in the law using census income levels from the last census 70% of Americans will qualify for subsidized insurance and costs from those at the poverty line (a lot of help) to a good percentage (capped at a 9.5% of income for premiums, out of pocket costs help at 70%) the people will see its portable and affordable For Them and vote in line to keep it. Add in the voting poor on Medicaid and others its a lot of votes. If just 25% shift their votes to the Democrats over this that is all they need to see to have Republicans lose power critically for a long time.

Its not about anything else.

So scare people all you want in the end the next major presidential election hits after Obamacare is in full effect, stop that tide, any social program benefitting such a large group was never repealed (Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, VA Benefits etc.). The only issue is it must fully kick in and its almost time for that to happen now 2015 if you include businesses.

 

Well to be fair…..

When I say 98% of the health care professionals I’ve spoken to that means 98% of the representative number of health care professional I’ve spoken to which has only been about 15 different people around the country in my travels. (I travel for business)


So of the 15 people I’ve spoken to in various health care facilities, 14 of them liked the law except for one Aetna rep that told me there will be positives and negatives and she couldn’t say with certainty what those negatives would be until the law gets fully implemented.

All I know is this, we’re the richest nation in the world and people having to resort to hospital emergency rooms just to see a Dr. (that ultimately we pay for anyway) is criminal, and we can definitely do better.

I fully realize money has to come from somewhere to pay for it but if the rest of the world can do it we can do it, and constantly trying to defund it just because your base believes it’s literally the second coming of Satan himself is ridiculous.

 

Trying to defund it because you believe it's bad law and bad public policy isn't ridiculous.

 

Fair enough,

Then what are the valid reasons republicans are constantly trying to defund it?

I, and millions of other moderate lefties believe that the right is trying to defund & demonize it is because truly they know how successful it will be a few years after it's implemented and what it will mean for the presidents legacy.

Let’s be honest with each other, the right doesn't care at all about health care, who needs it, who has it, or who could use it as much as they care about winning elections.

Voting to defund or get rid of the law 40 times in meaningless symbolic votes that don't serve anybody other than keeping certain factions happy is a colossal waste of time & money (tax dollar money that republicans are saying they're always so concerned about)

Just today in the Wall Street Journal was a story about how a typical hip replacement here has an average price of $78.000 while that “same” surgery in Belgium with the same manufacturers’ parts costs roughly $13.000. (there’s something seriously, seriously wrong with that)

Our system has been, is, and always will be broken unless something serious is done about it, and beating our chests at political rallies shouting USA, USA, USA, while politicians pander & grandstand won’t fix it.

Contrary to public belief, we don't have the world’s greatest health care system, and it needs to be fixed and addressed, not demonized & defunded.

 

The valid reasons to defund it are what I already stated, it's bad law and bad public policy.

As far as being successful, I guess that depends on what you mean. If you mean is the right worried that it will do what it was advertised to do, expand health coverage at the same time reducing health care costs, then no, there is no fear on the right (and not much hope on the left) that it will work as advertised. But if you mean get a new class of people hooked on an unaffordable entitlement program, then yes, there is a real worry that will happen. The people who are getting the subsidized insurance plans won't want to give them up, and they won't care that this plan exacerbates everything that is wrong with the current health care system.

It's such a bad law that there are those on the right who think it designed to be this bad and to fail, after wrecking the current healthcare system, in order to make a single payer system politically palatable. That may or may not have been the intent but the actual result could lead that way. The law isn't even fully implemented and look at the chaos it's creating in the healthcare markets. Virtually every day there is a new story in the news about some sort of "unintended consequence" of Obamacare. Although most of these "unintended consequences" were predicted during the political battle over it.

Although there have been a fair amount symbolic repealing votes, this would be something real and effective. I would think the White House would be happy to go along with it. Do they want this plan hitting during an election year?

 

There is still an issue if you do get rid of the Affordable Care Act aka Obamacare how will you provide affordable to use health care options the low income can use? Buying insurance without serious help won't work, health savings account useless, forcing employers to cover all workers unlikely, a public health service safety net is not being considered and the poor are the ones that drain the system when expensive care is needed and they can't pay the bill.

And if you spread that to working class lower end its still not an option to trust the free market.

Anyway its looked at something has to give rationing care due to income, age, effectiveness, cost of treatment, controls on what medical providers can charge at all levels and choice of provider all are issues.

All I see is the Republicans attack me as a low income voter wanting to take away my only chance at health insurance in my state and offering NOTHING in return I see as workable and ready to pass with the repeal of Obamacare. Might I suggest your side do this do a VA like health service with funding it with taxes and an annual premium based on income with out of pocket costs for those under 200% of the poverty line and have that with the repeal so it kicks in immediately that would be something showing your not trying to take a big Number 2 on my head. But until alternative is there and in with the repeal and the alternative works for me I can't vote for a Republican it hurts me. Don't people get that and why the Republicans can't win this fight after the law kicks in the fight is dead. And the Republicans are the issue.

 

Once again, fair enough….

Some business’s that we’re all familiar with like PaPa John’s and countless other large & small business have publicly stated that the law will bankrupt them which is incredibly inaccurate, disingenuous, and has a lot more to do with their political leanings than it does reality.

The truth is they don’t want anything, and I mean anything cutting into their bottom line profitability. True some business’s will have to spend a little more than what their spending now to cover their workers but in no way is it going to make them paupers.

I would argue that depending on the source where all of this information is coming from stating that the law has already caused a bunch of chaos is suspect at best.

Once again lets be honest with each other, some sources of news from both the left & the right are incredibly skewed.

Can either one of us say with 100% certainty that everything we hear form “our side” is the Gospel? (I doubt it)

I haven’t sufficient evidence that quantifies or qualifies the new health care law as a complete disaster and I’m hopeful that as time goes by, more bugs will be worked out until its perfect or as close to perfect as possible.

With respect to it being another entitlement program that only immigrants or illegal’s will benefit from……………ok so you do realize that that’s been a republican talking point debunked so many times by neutral third party sources that you can’t even keep count at this point.

The law was not written to benefit illegal’s from Mexico while the rest of us pay the bill and I severely doubt that it was written to fall upon its own sword to pave the way for single payer.

Although I’d be the first to admit that I’d love single payer for this country.

When the debate was raging in Washington I was traveling heavily throughout Europe on business in countries like Italy, Spain, and Japan.

I can tell you my friend that everybody I talked to in all of these countries supported the U.S’s efforts in trying to fix a broken healthcare system.

They couldn’t understand why they saw all those people on the Capitol lawn in funny hats & period costumes with signs saying things, and calling the president names that definitely couldn’t be repeated here.

No, if republicans were honest, they’d just admit that (as they love to call it) "Obamacare" is nothing more than Romney-Care warmed over, and a lot of its provisions are warmed over ideas from the right from past health care debates.

But that’s the entire problem with Washington these days, what the right was "for" (pre President Obama) they’re now "against". (on almost everything he's doing)

Dude, you can’t measure that level of hypocrisy if you tried……….

 

The news I'm talking about isn't about conservative blogs, I'm talking about mainstream sources like Yahoo News. Not exactly a bastion of the neo-cons. There have been a steady stream of news stories of increased insurance premiums and full time jobs being cut and replaced with part time jobs to avoid the ACA insurance requirement. Here's even one from your side: New Jobs Created Almost All Part Time

This in theory should be troubling to the most progressive of lefties.

This isn't about Papa Johns, it's about all the companies that are saying nothing, but are still cutting full time positions and limiting the hours of part timers, like the company my son works for.

As for as who qualifies for the subsidies, since I never said anything about immigrants or illegals, I'm not sure where you got that, but I'd rather you not put words in my mouth. Go back and read my last post again if you are questioning whether my objections to Obamacare are somehow some sort of nativist rant.

Also, I'm afraid I won't be impressed by Europeans not understanding US political culture. That's pretty much a given.

 

Sorry to hear your son’s hours have been cut and sorry for misreading your last post regarding who the law was written for.

Let’s leave it at this, social security and a few other laws all had the same teething issues when they were initiated and look at them today.

Try to take someone’s SS away from them……………see what kind of reaction you get.

Once again, all the business’s cutting hours aren’t doing it because of the law as much as their not about to sacrifice 0.00001% on profits on something as irrelevant as health care for their employees.

Never mind the fact that a healthier worker would mean more productivity.

As for Europeans not understanding US political culture…..

I think it’s fair to say that nobody anywhere was quite prepared for the ugliness we all saw on that capitol lawn for weeks while that debate was raging. Including lawmakers being spat on as then went in for the final vote. (pretty disgusting stuff)

I’m not sure what category anybody could put (the more extreme) Tea Partiers in - that all still mostly believe the president was born in Kenya, reads Mein Kampf every night before he goes to bed, and says afternoon prayers to Allah………

Let’s just both hope that at some point down the road, we – like Europe have healthcare for everybody and our citizens stop dying based on somebody else’s profit chart.