Part 24 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Originally Posted by WanRen View Post
No doubt the Tanakh and the Bible has many similarities in Revelations this is because the Bible accept the Tanakh which is the Old Testament while Judaism only has the Tanakh no New Testament but most of all Judaism has a total different interpretation of Revelation the Jews believe that their nation will be the ultimate ruler of the world where all nations and human races will submit to their rule it is about them their rule and law not about God. The Christian interpretation of Revelation is about God about humanity uniting under God.

Remember in Judaism they interpreted the destruction of the 12 tribes was due to them corrupting God's message. The remaining two tribes Judah and Benjamin and "sub tribe" Levi continued the corruption and they openly display their rejection of God with their rejection of Jesus Christ. The 10 tribes that were dispersed in 700 BC they would integrate with other races that were all descendants of Noah and many of them would accept Jesus Christ while the Pharisees have not.

And I agree that Revelation is a mixture or has elements from the Tanakh because the Holy Bible recognize the Tanakh while Judaism do not recognize the Bible.The interpretation of the Jews were wrong that was why they were destroyed due to their own sins against God and Jews accept this and in spite of this they still continue to reject God by insisting on their own wrong interpretation not God's. Judaism that was under the control of the Pharisees expect the Messiah to be a warrior King that would liberate them from the Romans and established a full and powerful Israel empire that was once mighty during King David and King Solomon time before the 12 Tribes split. Judaism that has condemn the other 10 tribes expect the Messiah tp unite them under their their rule neglecting the fact that all of them the 12 Tribes have corrupted God's laws.

The 12 Tribes that include Judah and Benjamin would be destroyed by the Assyrians then by the Babylonians. The Persians sometime in 500 BC would allow Jews that were exiled by the Babylonians to return in Palestine these were believe to be the tribe of Judah and Benjamin and the Levi. Their return did not reestablished their individual tribe but they became known as Jews no distinction between Benjamin and Judah as well as with all the other 10 tribes their tribal identity was lost in favor of a common identity as Israel and they will be known as Jews. The term "Jews" was based originally on tribe of Judah. The Levi was never recognize as a tribe of its own they were supposed to be the priest but what happened was the Levi went with Judah and Benjamin tribes during the Israel civil war.

Chances IMO the Levi morphed into the Pharisees. Descendants of Judah were associated with the Sedducees. The Samaritans were descendants of the other 10 tribes and the Essenes were the tribe of Benjamin.

yes the Pharisees will reject Jesus Christ while the gentiles and other Jews would accept Jesus Christ. Remember Noah and his family once worship God it would be the succeeding generations that would not worship God but would start worshiping their own gods. Abraham would be task to reestablished that covenant from Abraham to Isaac to Joseph to Moses to Joshua and then it ended or got cut off again after death of King Solomon. The Hebrews started to make their own laws reject all the prophets including rejecting John the baptize and finally rejecting God Himself Jesus Christ.

I assume that you have a good historical background to know that the other 10 tribes were exiled by the Assyrians and were never allowed to return remember they were uprooted not exterminated and were exiled all over Assyrian empire what ever happened to them historians would agree that they interacted, intermarried and integrated with where ever new society or civilization they settled in. 700 years after the coming of Christ that is lots of years and generations for the 10 tribes to have multiply and integrated with different civilization that ruled the world from the Assyrians, Babylonians, Philistines, Greeks, Egypt, Persia, Romans, Arabs, etc. The Ten tribes are now part of the world population that is why Four corners representing North, South, East and West of the world not just Israel.

 

Education is the key not the English language.

 

That is absolute rubbish. All you see is that which comes to your mind, not reality. Have you read the History of the ancient world. No, and that is obvious by your posts. The ancient world was a violent one. Even the Bible reveals that. If we were to accept your story of Noah and the survivors (and I don't) being the good ones, they VERY rapidly went downhill. Jacob and his family believed in God. That was a drop in the ocean to the population of the world. Even the supposed 2m that came out of Egypt would have been a miniscule number - world population wise. The 'evil and the wicked' as you would describe them were in charge in the ancient world. And do you think the good are in charge today. Look around the world. When will you come into the real world.
Great nations? Where? Communist Russia? Communist China? Communist North Korea? Eastern States run by the Army, dictators? The Middle East full of violence? Violence in Africa? India full of starving people? Great Britain built on violence and slavery? The USA built on violence and slavery? Even Canada was built on war and violence. Wherever mankind goes, violence and bigotry follow. The most content people in the world are often those tribes who have never come into contact modern man and Christianity/Islam, but follow their own beliefs.
Ghengis Kahn, Mohammed, Crusaders, inquisitors, Cortez, Stalin, Hitler and a dozen others give a lie to your post.

 

Some weave a fantasy that everything is light, airy and moral since the flood... I have an "earworm" of Puff the Magic Dragon"......

 

Since most people don't know the real Ten Commandments it's understandable why they believe in the silly flood story of water covering the entire planet.

 

I already explained to you the evolution of Jesus into God. In Mark Jesus becomes divine at 30. Clearly Satan does not think Jesus is God and Satan should know given that he is also a Son of God.

The other Gospels used Mark as a source document and add to the story. In Matthew we have an immaculate conception and a lineage. This is the author of Matt trying to make Jesus more in line with OT prophecy relating to the Jewish belief in a David like messiah that would come and restore Israel to former Glory.

Unfortunately Jesus does not fulfil this Messianic prophecy.

Luke was supposedly a student of Paul. Luke never met Jesus and so anything he has to say is based on stories passed down over decades. Regardless that Jesus as a young fellow may have sat in the Synagogue and referred to it as his fathers house is not an unusual thing to come from a religious Jews mouth as God was referred to as the father.

Second ... How does Jesus referring to God as his Father have any thing to do with Jesus actually being the father other than NOTHING.. ZERO.. NADA.

What is wrong with you ?

No he wasn't. Quit making things up. Pilate found Jesus "not guilty" which means that he refused to claim to be God and not the reverse.

Catholics pray to Mary. Take from that what you will. Of course Catholics believe that Jesus is God ! They were the ones that turned Jesus into God in the first place

I agree that early Christians believed Jesus was a Son of God and was divine. What they did not believe was that Jesus was one in the same with the God of Abraham.

 

Really wonderful post... thought provoking.. Well done.

 

So after the flood, the whole world was left with only non wicked and evil people. Noah and his family. Yet, his family started wicked and evil all over again?

- - - Updated - - -

Try one. Both would be better. But if you wish to converse to americans in english, try learning english. BTW - I know you fake it. I've seen posts of yours that had perfect english grammer when you forgot to fake it.

 

Thx Margot. Not sure if you have seen this documentary but it is really good and incorporate some fairly recent info and insight.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/

The thing is that it is really long ... like 2 hours. What you can do though is go to certain sections. The title is "From Jesus to Christ"

In the first 15 minutes you will find info on Julius Caesar. How on Roman Coins had his depiction with the caption "Son of the Divine"

It was a Capital Crime as blasphemy against Caesar to declare oneself "Son of God" . Jesus at this trial would have been asked numerous questions such as "Do you claim to be Son of God", "Divine", "the Messiah" and so on.

Any evasion or positive responses to these questions would have resulted in Jesus being found to be "Guilty" Pilate however found Jesus "not Guilty".

Jesus, at least in front of Pilate, did not claim to be the Son of God.

 

LOLOL.. good call.

 

Oh wow.. Thank you. I will watch the whole thing.. I have always been curious about the notion that Jesus was the son of God or a child of God and if that choice wasn't available to all of us.

 

1. If the book of Revelations is made up of teachings of the Tanakh, it cannot claim to be original, neither can it claim it's own interpretation. These are Jewish scriptures yet suddenly Christianity cobbles together a book out of Verses.
Do you accept the teachings of the JW's, or the Mormons, or the Christian Scientists or other sects. These are based on the Bible. If you don't, then why should you expect to alter the Tanakh to suit your beliefs.
You keep on saying the Jews expected to rule the world. They didn't, and don't. Judaism isn't Zionism. The 12 tribes were not destroyed by the Assyrians. The Northern kingdom - 10 tribes were. These were dispersed somewhere within the Assyrian Empire. Did they interact? They were a special people - even in exile - who were 'indoctrinated' with the fact of being special. No-one knows what happened to them. The 'Samaritans' took their place in Israel and they maintained their identity. Do you not have parts of your cities inhabited by groups of people from one nation.
I don't know what happened to them and I never worry about it.

And stop calling the tribe of Levi a 'subtribe'. It's insulting. They were are much a tribe as the others, though with a special purpose. They are included in the tribes in Revelation.

Suggest you do a bit of study, not guesswork.

No it wasn't.
No they don't now.
And David and Solomons vast empires never existed.

Can't answer that as it doesn't make sense. smallest tribe of Benjamin was always overshadowed by the largest of the tribes Judah.

What on earth? God only made 4 covenants with Israel.

The Abrahamic covenant. This covenant is an everlasting covenant and cannot cease.
The Mosaic covenant
The Davidic covenant
The Renewed covenant (Jeremiah) This is to Judah and Israel.

That's enough

 

According to the Bible there are two attributes needed to become full-fledged gods: the knowledge of good and evil and the ability to live forever. Mankind has the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore if we could live forever we would be true gods.

 

What I see is history. And what do you is it history or personal opinion?

Yes and I agree that ancient world was a violent world very savage and barbaric that include cannibalism eating of fetuses, human sacrifice, torture you name it the Bible describe it well. I hope that the rest of none Christians in this thread see it the way you see it the way we Christians understood it according to the Bible and history.
Genesis 6: 5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

It actually took some generations before they started to turn to evil and not all of Noah's descendants turn to evil.

The evilness that existed after the flood were less evil as evidence of how civilization progresses. Good is now strong enough to contain evil. Yes look around the world evil still exist at the same time see the real world if not for good people evil would have already triumph. Good have been able to come out on top in spite of how aggressive and violent evil has been.

Those nations if not for the good nations such as UK, France, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, USA, Canada, etc. would have succeeded in turning this world into hell the very reason why you, me and everyone else are able to debate and discuss things intensely without fear is because we live in a nation that recognize good.

The USA would come out of slavery and violence to become a strong nation that will fight for freedom and democracy same with Canada. Those tribes practice their own form of violence and bigotry even before they came into contact with modern man.

Ghengis Kahn, Mohammed, Crusaders, inquisitors, Cortez, Stalin, Hitler etc. are clear proof that the struggle and wars between good and evil is for real.

 

The Ten Commandments is part of Biblical history that include the global flood the global flooding that scientist have been echoing to all nations today to change and stop abusing the environment they called it "global warming", "green house effect" that would lead to global flooding if we don't heed their warnings.

 

If you believe in God why are you so fearful that he will harm you?

 

If one does good things to others, they will live forever.

 

And I explain to you that Jesus Christ did not evolved to become God because he is God from the very beginning. "He will be called the Son of God". At 30 Jesus begun is ministry. Satan knew Jesus is God that is why he tried to tempt God in his human form thinking that as a human God will be susceptible to temptation and that Satan will succeed and true enough Jesus showed Satan who he is "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve". and Satan went away.
.

Matthew's gospel about Jesus is to let everyone know that Jesus is the Messiah as prophesied in the OT or Tanakh but not about earthly empire or kingdom of Israel but about Kingdom of God. The earthly glory about Israel is the interpretation of the Pharisees.

Jesus did fulfill the Messianic prophecy the world now knows who Jesus Christ is, humanity regardless of ethnicity are now welcome to the House and Kingdom of God not just the Jews.

Luke is a clear example that 1st generation and to some degree 2nd generation Christians accept and recognize Jesus Christ is the Son of God is God. It would be in the late 100 AD to early 200 AD that many individuals will start to invent things that is not true about Jesus Christ these individuals were called heretics and the most successful heretical figure was Mohammed. Jesus was very clear when he told his parents "Why is it that ye have sought me? did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business? Jesus was not referring to his earthly parents Mary and Joseph but he was referring to God.

Jesus recognize who he is and he shared with his parents who he is and that is he is the Son of God. Did anyone told Jesus he was the Son of God? Or that Mary and Joseph are his earthly parents? No Jesus at around 11 already knew who he is and what his mission is.

Nothing is wrong with me because I recognize the historicity of the Bible and as a Christian I accept and worship Jesus Christ because beyond reasonable doubt Jesus Christ is God.

Pilate sentence Jesus to death from accusation brought against him by the Pharisees that Jesus blaspheme by declaring himself to be God or refusing to say he is not God.

Praying and worship are two different things. When you pray on the dead bed of your loved ones are you worshiping them or praying?
Christians just like Peter, the Apostles, Paul and all the Saints recognize and accept Jesus Christ is God it would be the anti Christ that would worked hard and violently to turned Jesus or God into a mere man.

That claim of yours "What they did not believe was that Jesus was one in the same with the God of Abraham" is basically what early anti Christ were claiming that started in the late 100 AD.
Christians since the 1st century have always believe, recognize and worship Jesus Christ is God the same and One and only God that appeared to Abraham, Noah and Moses.

 

Because of Satan, some later descendants of Noah would revert back to evil but this time there will be enough good people to contain them.
Education is number 1 the English language just like all other languages comes secondary. Education is about knowledge not about racial language.

“Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.”
― Albert Einstein

 

The Tanakh which is the OT is the original words of God. The Pharisees corrupted with their own interpretation. Quran, Mormon book etc. are all restructured books by changing what is written in the Bible just like how one poster change it by creating the UNDERPANTS bible in a way there is similarity all of them corrupted the Bible or for the Pharisees they corrupted the Tanakh by injecting their own interpretation it was this action that resulted in the destruction of the 12 Tribes of Israel.

I agree the 10 tribes were destroyed by the Assyrians and later the remaining 2 tribes and the Levi will be destroy by the Babylonians.
All of the 12 Tribes will be uprooted scattered all over the empire or the world and it is natural that they will evolved by intermarrying, interacting and integrating with the society they settled to. You don't know where they are? I suspect you know you just can not come into reconciliation that they became part of the world's human race.

If you don't worry about it then does this mean the 12 Tribes that would unite as what is mention in Revelation would be who?

The Levi are sub-tribe it is only insulting to those who are not familiar with history. They were never consider a tribe per se they were high priest that soon grew to become to become a power house of their own,

So far your knowledge of Jewish history is lacking?

You are contradicting Jewish history.

That is why they would later be called Jews because Judah was the dominant and surviving tribe that allied closely with the Levi.

And the covenant got broken several times and the final broke came with the Pharisees with their open rejection of God Himself.

 

are you actually trying to say it was all fluffy lambs and cuddles betwixt the flood and very recently? have you not read the bible? and that's just ONE snapshot of ONE time and ONE place. a cursory glance at the remaining 3000 odd years betwixt then and now tells us just how barbarous humans have been. improvements to our condition, the like of which you dream happened after the flood, have only kicked in very recently. one might even suggest that god's 'universal flood' was actually education and secularism ... because these have done far more to improve our lot than anything else.

 

First of all my link talks about the archaeologists findings of the biblical cities of S & G along the Jordanian shore of the Dead Sea. The tablets of Ebla were discovered in Syria.

Below is part of the article from your link:

"Numerous articles have appeared in the popular press and in scholarly journals stating that the names of Sodom and Gomorrah appear in the Ebla tablets. At one point it was even being said that all five cities of the plain (Gen. 14), and perhaps the name of one of the kings, were mentioned in the tablets. Much controversy has surrounded this discussion. Infighting between the excavator (Paolo Matthiae), the epigrapher (Giovanni Pettinato), and other scholars, along with some political implications, clouded the whole issue.

At this point scholars are not agreed on the proper reading of some of the Eblaite words. Perhaps in time we will know more about this. For the present we must wait patiently. Numerous articles about Ebla have appeared in Biblical Archaeologist and Biblical Archaeology Review, as well as other journals."

So as we can see there is still debate going on concerning the proper reading of some of the Eblaite words on the tablets found at Ebla. But nevertheless, what I posted on my link concerns the findings of S & G by an expert team of archaeologists.

Now as usual there are always going to be people who are going to be skeptical with archeological findings anytime it gives authenticity to certain passages of Scripture written in the Holy Bible...that is a given!

But nevertheless as reported from my link: "The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a certain fact of history. There is archaeological and geological evidence to support it."

 

There is little worth responding to other than

Pilate found Jesus not Guilty. As usual you have no clue what you are talking about.

The Prophecy was that the Messianic leader would restore the former Glory of Israel (While alive)

Jesus did not fulfill that prophecy. Again you have no clue what you are talking about.

Again you have no clue what you are talking about.

Just because you can make up fantasies WR does not make them real.

 

Yes education is the key to civilization progression from evil and wickedness to respect for human rights, multiculturalism and universality with God's law as the blueprint to improve law and order with the introduction of democracy and the separation of church and state. That is why the church has been in the forefront of education that would allowed the growth and expansion of secularism in contrast to the growth and fall of secular communism.

The flood was to give the good people a fighting chance and it worked.

 

The flood is just a war story. Noah's grandson becomes the ruler of Babylon and builds cities in Assyria.