Pat Robertson: Divorce your wife with alzheimers

I am not talking about fear of hell am I. I am talking about the need for Christians, and indeed others, to enforce standards - accountability.

It is exactly those among us today who think they see but are blind. Jesus was not always nice, indeed when the Pharisee's attack him, his response is not, "Well, I see what is in your hearts and politics .... so I guess we will just have to disgree." He states, openly and emphatically, that they have commited the unpardonable sin.

Its not hell - its adultry, lying, stealing, violence, sexual inpropriety, gambling to excess, drunkness, drug use, arrogance, binge eating and drinking, hedonism, and just simple failure.

All of these things can be forgiven, but they should never be tolerated. we should not allow people around to conduct themsleves in this fashion openly and with acceptance. Indeed, any organization, any company, and church that does so ... dies.

We all sin, we do not all do it intentionally. Those who do will be, indeed must be, held accountable in this life and the next.

As I have said before, Love is not always kind, and it sure as hell in not a lack of standards and accountability.

 

Your words seem to exude a lot of anger concerning this topic.

Let me ask you just one question: What is your purpose for being on this forum? Is it to be 'right' and spend all your time justifying that you are right---or is it to reach out to those who are lost as a representative of Jesus Christ?

As for me, I 'attempt' to do the latter....with of course, the exception of the occasional parting bow-shot B4 moving on and leaving a thread (and hopefully, so as not getting sucked 'too deep' into folly of vain arguments)

May the peace of God that passes all human understanding guard your heart & mind in Christ Jesus...OD

 

Nope, it is passion.

I have seen a lck of accountability destroy nearly everything, businesses, churches, mosques, military formations, families, you name it. Accountability is in the Bible. We do not get to God solely through grace, and I fail entirely to see how writing this out makes me angry? That is silly.

Indeed, such a charge of anger, though you apparently disagree, is all about accountability? Apparently, you are all for accountability - in what?

Perhaps when you have seen young men die as a result of a standards failure, you too will be passionate about not making excuses and mistakenly calling it grace.

 

A. Not me. I'm a conservative atheist.

B. I am not a member of any atheist community and I have no brothers.

C. In a pigs eye, your mistaken bretheren get called to account.

 

Interesting.

#1 - You are a conservative atheist, but the only one out there.

#2 - You have no friends and are denied fellowship? I am sad for you.

#3 - I believe that many Christians are indeed calling Robertson to task, even while you claim it is not happening.

To be atheist is to deny an awful lot of the obvious.

 

Wouldn't it be convenient if we could just write off anyone who makes Christianity look bad as not being a real Christian? Such is not the case. Pat Robertson IS a Christian, which makes his offense all that more devastating to us all. I don't believe in showing solidarity only with Christians who give a good impression of Christianity. I show solidarity with all Christians, even the ones that embarass the faith.

 

As former military and raised as a military dependent, I know all about self-discipline, individual responsibility, and accountability.

But dont let 'accountability' lead you down the path of 'legalism.' Legalism is the opposite of grace. The OT Law was legalism and did not motivate the ppl but put them under guilt & condemnation, and hardened their hearts. Grace, forgiveness of sin, and the love of God does motivate the NT believer to be a follower of Christ and conformed to His image.

Accountability is ultimately to God, and is also each individual's responsibility. If we are charged with holding each other accountable, self & ego will interfere with fairness and truth, as has been made evident with all the hundreds of denominations (divisions) within the body of Christ thru the ages. It produces the quarrels & strife that you previously mentioned!!

And so, as Paul told his followers concerning the man who did evil back then:

1 Corinthians 5:5: Ampl
"You are to deliver this man over to Satan for physical discipline [to destroy carnal lusts which prompted him to incest], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

It's God's job to judge & discipline, not ours.....

 

OD:
I am not sure where you concern with legalese originates?

The things I listed that we must resist, indeed hold accountable, if necessary excommunicate are: adulty, lying, sexual immorality, drunkeness, abuse, violence, arrogance, etc.

Sin does not change from OT to NT, but the rules based approach is modified to include context. Adultry is STILL a sin, the punishment is not ALWAYS death (nor should it be).

Adultry STILL places a barrier between you and God, between you and those of the fellowship, and it STILL requires repentence and forgiveness.

Grace is not a get out of jail free card. It is the acknoweldgement that we are err, and allows us atonement.

The failure to enforce these standards, whether you are Christian or not, is devestating. Have you ever seen what adultry does to work place? When the boss cheats on his wife with the secretary and everyone find out? When you ar ecaught lying to a client? Sexually harassing someone in the office? When you ignore warning because you office mate is a twit? When you physically assualt someone in the work place.

The proof of God's wisdom is in the pudding, go ahead and violate it - you will see.

Those of us you wishto build organizations, formations, familes, etc. would do well to avoid those things, and, when people bring them is - hold them accountable. If not ... you pay the price.

There is no strife, those are the rules of God.

"Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently." (Galatian 6:1)

Indeed, if we do not judge, then why do we excommunicate?

It does not say to not judge, it says to judge with compassion - because as you judge, you too will be judged. And if I fail, I fully expect a fellow Christian to tell me I have failed. Accountability is not just for others - and the standards are the same for all of us.

 

I'm afraid you're a better Christian than I am.
I have no problem to regard people, whose take on the Christian faith differs greatly from mine as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but there are limits.
And sometimes I'm cynical enough to wonder whether some of the more disgusting televangelists really believe in their own warped sermons, let alone in Christ, or whether guys like Creflo Dollar (his message is even in his name) et al. just ruthlessly abuse the Lord's name to make money, which seems to be their true and only God. Sorry, but I can't feel any solidarity with such people other than the solidarity that I have for any other fellowmen and fellowsinners.

 

When, here in the US, the Supreme Court recognized Atheism as a religious group/class, ALL persons claiming to be Atheists were immediately recognized as being members of that class of people, and as members of that class of people, they all became brothers and sisters in the brotherhood of Atheism, thereby being granted all the rights and privileges of being Atheist.

 

I have been "around the horn" as they say, having been involved with both small & large super-churches, denominational as well as inter/non-denominational, and have seen them fall from "the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life," but also many more from gossip and the busy-bodies who go around accusing and pointing fingers (many in their hypocrisy) that festers disharmony and dis-unity, eventually bringing ruin to the local body attending.

Initially, seeing these things did affect my confidence in supposed 'men & women of God," and for many has resulted in ship wrecked faith. However, it taught me the lesson of the scriptures, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind.' And to keep my eyes on the Word of God, and only one man being the Lord Jesus Christ. So my faith now is stronger than ever, since I look to no mortal man for the things of God, but trust & rely upon 'the Spirit' behind the scriptures, who is called our teacher.

I see this life as being a 'proving ground' as to our walk of faith (our boot camp), and that surviving and moving past all the human-based, religious strife & quarrels as being the obstacles that 'weed out' the weak in faith and faint of hearts, not having any depth of root.

And so, I expect the failings of mortal humans, and look past all, keeping my heart tender to God and not hardened in being judgmental, to finish the race, and to win the prize.....being judgmental and attacking the wounded Christians (we are the only Army that kills our wounded) will cause the runner of the race to stumble along the path.

And, BTW, Grace IS in fact a 'Get Out Of Jail Free" card, for we do not have to pay for our sins...but I think you meant that it is not a 'Carte Blanche to sin' permit...

 

I think a lot of Christians feel the same way. We've been burned so often that we are tempted not to trust anymore, but then Jesus teaches us to cast ourselves upon HIM all that much more and put our trust in his sustaining grace, keeping our eyes on the prize. We then learn to find the most profound godliness in the most unexpected pockets of life, not where the cameras are rolling, but in the simple acts of mercy that go unheralded; families opening up their homes to victims of Hurricane Katrina, parents who have a down syndrome child and see it as a gift from heaven, or average people who volunteer at the soup kitchen after a long days work. To us, the jaded Christians, these become precious jewels formally hidden from our sight, but now revealed to us so that we don't lose hope. God is at work in the unseen and God loves us.

 

I don't think I'm a better Christian than you, but I've learned something along the way in my walk with the Lord.

"Because you say 'I am rich. I have become wealthy and need nothing' and don't realize that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked." (Rev 3:17)

We are, all of us, trying to put the best front we can so that others don't see how broken we are. Sometimes the truth is revealed, shocking inner struggles that come to light in the most embarassing manner, like when Senator Craig got caught in an airport sex sting operation when he tried to solicit sex from men. He then compounded the error by confessing to it and then denying it profusely. This doesn't tell me he's not the Christian he claims to be, it tells me he has a serious struggle that he doesn't want to face. Soon it becomes apparent that nobody has it all together as they appear that we all broken vessels in desperate need of God's grace; that we are "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked."

 

I think he may be somewhat right. I don't think you should abandon them, but in many cases a person with alzheimers will start relationships with other patients who they see every day. If you are married to them, you make them adulterers, even if they don't realize it.

I don't think he means "cut 'em loose and leave them forever" you are still family, just not married. It's a technicality that keeps them from sinning unknowingly.

 

I totally agree. Christians are just as fallible, full of internal struggle and prone to sin as anybody else.

But I also see the possibility that a person might just claim to be a Christian while not being a believer in the Lord and His grace at all, just because they see the opportunity for some profit or the other when they make that false claim.

In how far that is the case in particular persons is just for God to say, because He's the only one who fully understands and knows our respective hearts.