Paying a "fair share"

Are you proposing a solution to "someone is affected by something that can ruin their life, that they have NO control over"? If so...let's hear it?

And even when these things happen in our lives, they are not the reason for people achieving small portions of their potential...

 

The average profit margins of the S&P are around 8.5-9.0%. Last time I checked...it's a really good thing for US industry to do well. After all, what is any business' goal; to earn and keep profits. 75 million Americans are effected by the stock market...do you think all these people want higher or lower profits?

Let's pretend there are 500 companies in an area; 10 have profits of $100 million each and the other 490 have profits of $1 million each. You are suggesting those companies with $100 million profits should pay their employees on average $50/hour while the others will pay $15/hour. Since profits are never guaranteed, what happens to those 10 companies if profits drop and they are paying $50/hour? Where do you suppose all the good workers are going to work...at those 10 companies. What happens to a worker who is dismissed from a $50/hour job and only $15/hour jobs are available? I could go on for another hour listing issues with paying workers according to profits.

There are ~160 million workers and perhaps ~145 million jobs...this fact mandates that all workers are competing for fewer jobs. Secondly, the income of these 145 million workers varies between $7.25/hour and let's say $75/hour and workers will earn the wage which they can obtain and keep. Those who are unemployed, and those who complain they need to earn more, are required to compete with others including increasing their value in the workplace. No one else can do this for them!

Lastly, a 'suppression of wages' IMO is solely a political term, is meaningless, and cannot be solved. Why should I care about any one else's wages other than my own? If I don't like my wages I must take steps to achieve more...this is my job. Just whining all the time that 'I need more' and 'others are doing better than me', etc. is a fool's game!

 

What is laughable is you believe government will solve your problems when government has never solved any problems!

I fully know about people and their struggles! If government wishes to subsidize Americans then government should do this with taxpayer funding. Messing with the private sector, demanding higher wages and more when providing no increase in productivity, will lead to disaster. The private sector cannot solve people's financial problems without jeopardizing US industry. The primary reason the US has lost jobs off-shore and have trouble competing is the high cost of doing business, yet here you are demanding higher and higher costs?! Nothing is free...every un-natural action we force on the economy will have a price to pay! Lastly, those on the bottom today will always be on the bottom no matter worker compensation and this will never change unless you figure out how to pay all workers the identical wage...

 

Sorry to dissapoint, I don't have the miracle solution. But it really peeves me when someone blames a poor person for their situation and says it's all their fault, when in actuallity, there are likely outside factors that helped to create the situation they are in.

As far as your opinion that they are not the reason for achieving their potential, that is your opinion. Mine is that outside factors play an significant part to how a person may turn out. In the end though, it is just my opinon.

Any actual action taken in regards to the situation will depend on what the majority have as THEIR opinions, as that is usually how laws are made.

 

I never said anything about government solving problems.

The US will never be able to compete with third world countries by reducing the costs of doing business unless we reduce ourselves to slave wages. Which you claimed you weren't suggesting.


We've had ever increasing productivity for decades, but wages haven't kept pace and corporate profits are at record levels. No one is demanding higher wages without increased productivity, the increased productivity is already there.

Who said anything about identical wages? What's natural about any economy? You're not making any sense.

 

Why do we have to pretend? We have record level corporate profits now. How's the country doing?

I didn't suggest anyone should pay anyone $50/hr, what are you talking about.

You keep going back to your naive suggestion that people just have to increase their value in the marketplace. You still ignore the people who won't be able to do that.

 

But you do suggest using the force of the state to dictate what wage they are required to pay. Unless someone has trespassed against the body or property of someone else, or has made threats to do so, they ought to be free to act as they please, including paying any wage to which they and their employee agree. I oppose the idea of using state violence, or the threat thereof, to prevent them from doing so.

 

I'm not going to talk about the 'few' who have hard luck in their lives. On average, people in general, most all of those complaining, have done nothing to increase their value in the workplace! It's dog-eat-dog out there and people need to get with the program or shuffle to the bottom.

Outside factors happen to all people and again it is incumbent upon each person to work through those moments in life. If they are incapable of this then they just remain a burden on the nation until they die. No matter all the sob stories and excuses, IMO do not mess with the private sector! If government wishes to socialize tens of millions of Americans then do so with tax revenues but leave the private sector as healthy as possible...

 

Let's see...how about lowering or eliminating corporate taxes? How about work free zones which do not allow unions? How about incentivizing the private sector to hire and train lower skilled people? How about universal health care so industry does not pay for this? How about free public education K-16 so industry does not pay for this? How about millions more units of affordable housing? How about effective public transportation? How about the government allowing all that off-shore cash to flow back into the USA? There are many things we can do before we 'reduce ourselves to slave wages'!!

I'm making perfect sense...do not meddle with the private sector!

 

We do not have record level profits! Perhaps some companies are doing great but most are barely hanging on. Do not stereotype the millions of US business' as having record profits...this is not true.

$50/hour...my statements were clear...you think a company earning big profits should pay their employees more and more and more.

People who cannot, or refuse, to increase their value in the workplace...no matter what you believe, must accept less in life. If government wishes to socialize this people then fine with me as long as government does it from the general fund and does not meddle with the private sector. This is not being naive...

 

The rich have always done better and could lobby the system sure. That was true both before and after inequality started skyrocketing in 1981. Something else happened that year.

 

Let's say you and I walk into McDonald's and we each ask for a happy meal. Do you feel the guy behind the cash register has the right to ask us how much we make and how much money we have in the bank (and maybe go check out what kind of cars we drove) and then charge us different amounts of money for the same product?

 

After-tax profits for American corporations hit another record high last year, rising to $1.68 trillion.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/03/27/3420092/corporate-profits-record-2013/

CORPORATE profits are at their highest level in at least 85 years. Employee compensation is at the lowest level in 65 years.

The Commerce Department last week estimated that corporations earned $2.1 trillion during 2013, and paid $419 billion in corporate taxes. The after-tax profit of $1.7 trillion amounted to 10 percent of gross domestic product during the year, the first full year it has been that high. In 2012, it was 9.7 percent, itself a record.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/05/b...arger-as-slice-of-economy-as-wages-slide.html

- - - Updated - - -

90% of Americans didn't just start refusing to increase their value in the market place in 1981 when income inequality began skyrocketing:



Something else happened that year.

 

Are we sure that Pew Research Center is accurate in their reporting? It's a tiny little company with 130 employees, created by a staunch Republican with a lot of political ties. And not that Kellermann's past is a big deal, but he dropped out of Hofstra after one semester of college. So not exactly a great academic, yet builds a small research group. Maybe his methodology for collecting statistics sucked?

 

Could be, but the graph is consistent with other reports I have read about undocumented immigration substantially dropping off in the last few years. Pew is well respected but I agree not infallible. Feel free to post contradictory data.

 

Since when is a macdonalds comparable to a government?

There is no simple comparison for something so complex.

If you do want to compare then stop with the seeling anything, a government isnt a bussines run for profit.

Compare it more to moving something, do you expect the 90year old guy to carry as much as the 21 year old? And even such a comparison is highly flawed .

 

I don't know if Pew was on the up and up. That's why I was asking. But they are so hooked into the GOP that I wonder if they are objective in their findings. I was kind of shocked when I started reading there were only 11 million illegals. When Nobama was running for office I saw some talking heads on the news throwing out numbers like 34 million. I also heard Nobama freed 167,000 illegals with criminal records to run around USA committing new crimes. What's that about?

 

Hell yes it's a valid comparison. Government provides services, just like McDonalds provides a happy meal. They provide an Army and Navy so we keep the wars off our shores. A National Guard in case we are invaded. An FAA so the planes don't fall out of the sky. DFACS so we don't beat our kids. Entitlements so non-contributing members of society can live the dream. A post office so we get our mail. Courtrooms for the criminal thugs to get what's coming to them. I don't use half of the crap our government has built departments for, and while I want the same protections as the next guy I think everyone should pay the same amount. Or at least from a ratio perspective. This bullcrap about people like Eisenhower making a 92% tax bracket - that's insane. There needs to be a flat tax or fair tax.

 

Where did you "hear" that?

 

I would agree, but that would force higher gas, property, sales, and other taxes. We would end up paying the same.

 

Talking heads on TV I imagine. Or on the radio. But here is a quick google of those stories.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/h...legal-immigrants-stay-in-u.s./article/2561916

http://www.westernjournalism.com/obama-admin-releases-166000-criminal-illegal-aliens/

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2...-illegal-aliens-serious-criminal-convictions/

 

If you cant see this is VERY different from paying for a product from a shop you really should get a clue.

Thats far from insane, what would be insane is tax some people into poverty and call that "fair" just because people who can afford higher taxes dont "feel" bad .

If you get rid of the progressive system (what you advocate) you would need to raise the taxes on a lot of people.

Avg taxes for the moment

federal personal Income:18%
State/local : 10%
sales :10%
...
Lets just take federal income tax

current effective tax rates
Quintile Income Effective Tax Rate
Lowest $18,400 2.0%
Second $42,500 9.1%
Middle $64,500 12.7%
Fourth $94,100 15.7%
Highest $264,700 20.1%

So 70% would have to start paying more taxes.
The lowest incomes would see this tax alone increase by ninefold.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivity_in_United_States_income_tax
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456

 

People need to start paying their fair share. You cannot keep taxing the pi$$ out of the people who work hard and earn money, then distribute it to the people that don't want to contribute. The poorest of this country consume the largest portion of the government programs and service from departments. If you keep expecting the top 20% of wage earners to pay 90% of the taxes, eventually that top 20% may very well pick up and go somewhere else. What they would leave behind are a bunch of people who no longer have someone to carry them through life. The present system is neither equal nor fair. It is a Robin Hood re-distribution the likes of which only Karl Marx fantasized about. It is certainly not what the framers and founders architected.

 

Here are two simple ways a fair tax "could" work.

1) There are 325 million people in USA. Presently the IRS collects $1.9 trillion a year. If they collected $2.5 trillion *AND* lowered entitlements and the size of the military machine ($750 billion in and of itself), they could pay off the debt in 20 years. That having been said, to get get the $2.5 trillion from the 325 million people each year, each person would owe just under $8K a year in taxes. That's a decent starting point for figuring out a truly fair tax.
2) If the IRS collected zero, then the above $2.5 trillion could come from consumption taxes. USA's GDP is $17 trillion a year. So if we taxed every purchase of new goods or of services rendered at 15%; there is your $2.5 trillion. Another great starting point for figuring out a truly fair tax. That also helps the poor. They don't buy nearly as much goods and services, so they would not pay as much taxes.

Right now you are charging the wealthiest 20% of Americans about 90% of the tax burden. That is unfair and possibly unsustainable. Already some wealthy Americans have been using places like the Caymans and Switzerland as shelters for their wealth. The primary reason is to avoid unfair taxation.

It still goes back to the McDonalds scenario. 3 guys walk in and buy happy meals. One pays $50. One pays $5. One gets his for free *AND* gets $10 back. That is how USA works right now.

 

Neither "Limousine Liberal" Democrats NOR "Fat Cat" Republicans want to disturb the U. S. Tax Code, which is riddled with tax loopholes and tax shelters for the rich, and which ensures that the rich in this country pay little or nothing in taxes. At least the Republicans aren't hypocrites about it... they bellyache night and day about how the rich pay 99% of all the taxes in this country (which is total bull(*)(*)(*)(*)!). The Democrats, though, always cry and moan about how little the rich are taxed -- but never mention that it is equally true of rich Democrats, too!

"I can play golf in a rain storm like this!"