Practical firearms discussion: pistol grip-only shotguns

Sigh, I am indeed sorry you have trouble....
I posted the link, look up the BATFE letters.

Here you go again....

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88


Direct link to B.S.T.F.E. SANTAFE Letters.....

• July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage
• October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage
• Page 1 of third letter
• Page 2 of third letter
• Page 1 of fourth letter
• Page 2 of fourth letter

 

The sticking point with B.A.T.F.E. is concealability, and the magic number for whatever reason, is 26 inches
Overall length, the recommended length is 26 1/2 after installation of a 14 inch bartel and the Raptor Grip and as per Mossberg, available as a 590, and is purchased as s regular firearms over the counter without a B.A.T.F.E. Tax or approval.

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/


Texas decision

http://www.mossberg.com/590-shockwave-legal-in-texas/

 

Layaway Available

$374.92
$364.00*
*Cash discount price

Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12ga 14"
6-shot
Model
50659 Condition
Factory New
Bud's Item #
23322 UPC
015813506595
Manufacturer:
Mossberg & Sons Quantity Remaining
10+
***We're currently not shipping this firearm to CA, MA, or OH***

This 12GA offers legendary Mossberg pump-action reliability in a compact 14” barreled package.

The Shockwave Raptor © bird’s head pistol grip is uniquely shaped to minimize felt recoil. Includes all the features that have made Mossberg pump-actions the choice for millions worldwide: ambidextrous safety, dual extractors, positive steel-to-steel lockup, twin action bars, and a smooth operating anti-jam elevator.

Classified as fully-compliant by Federal BATFE, this model requires no Tax Stamp for transfers, where permitted.

From Bud's Gun store, it may be available locally at a better price.

***************************

I have only been researching this topic since I found out about it in 2012 lol, I have a terrible tendency to only speak about what I know.

That end price is what you would end up paying in any case, if you bought a new grip and modify the barrel at a Gunsmith etc etc....

And with a 6 shot capacity !!

 

Duplicate post

 

I have used such guns, mostly experimentally. Handled incorrectly they really are just a Hollywood gimmick.

BUT....

It IS possible, with proper training and manipulation, to use such weapons effectively as a close-quarters tool; provided you know the right way to utilize them.

With standard 2 3/4" 12 gauge shells it is possible to index the gun effectively enough to reliably center a man-sized target. Maneuverability in the close quarters of a structure/home is far better than a conventional shotgun. Recoil control is achieved through actions that seem counter-intuitive: you push forward with the support hand and pull back with the dominant hand, and you achieve a kind of "neutral tension" that dissipates recoil far more effectively than it has any right to, and enables you to recover while you cycle the action and send a followup shot with surprising speed.

Combine all that with the devastating power a shotgun brings to close-range confrontations, and it becomes a viable package for defense. You need the upper body strength to handle it, but as one of my former instructors put it, "Not everyone could handle a battle ax either; and that's exactly what this weapon is: a battle ax for the modern warrior."

 

I could see a use for it as an under the counter/desk gun with slugs for pointblank pain. Otherwise I'm going to personally prefer the surety of marksmanship that comes with, in preference order, 1) a weapon I can mate to the shoulder and get a half decent cheek weld on or 2) a pistol I can marry my thumbs to.

 

It took alot of work and ammo and range time to where I could manipulate a pistol grip short barreled shotgun effectively, at ranges up to 15 feet, ammo choice was important, and I liked an adjusted sling my plan being to fire it until empty, drop it, and the sling allows the shotgun to fall off the hip, and continue shooting with a handgun.

Such a shotgun is only effective if one dedicates the effort it takes to master it, then it becomes an incredible Arm.
I used a veritable mountain of ammo in order to learn to use such a shotgun.

 

Personally, the use of slugs in such a gun seems contraindicated to me. At close range buckshot gives devastating impact without quite the overpenetration a slug would bring to the table.

 

I didn't have to use a "mountain of ammo" but I've definitely done a lot of handling of shotguns. We ran the venerable Remington 870 in the Border Patrol, and I've used that platform extensively before and after.

I'd gotten away from shotguns for the most part; preferring light carbines for most tactical applications. But, the new generation of shortened shotguns, combined with effective methods of running them, has me rethinking that of late.

 

They spread awful wide at that short a barrel length if you're not right up on them though. It would make it solely useful at point blank and I don't like a gun that's only good at one engagement distance. Seems inefficient

 

If what you said was true, I would agree, however it is not so.
I found within 10 feet the shot pattern to be confined to centermass, 15 feet, covering a thug target.
I worked up to slugs, with Pachmayr pistol grips it helped with the recoil.

 

That's knife fighting distance or "point blank". 15 feet ain't so far. As a civvie you're responsible for your backstop and I'm not precisely surgical with a handgun much less a pistol grip shortbarrel.

I'd think that would make the slug more sure in most situations the gun could handle

 

almost worthless IMHO

 

They don't spread that wide. I think it was Clint Smith who said: "The shotgun is the best tool extant for removing flesh and bone from a miscreant."

At anything less than 10 yards (most household distances) the entire shot pattern of a load of 00 Buck will be barely larger than the size of a fist. When I was in the Border Patrol most training with buckshot went out to 25 yards and even further.

 

Well, as you are a qualifed person.

However, such guns have worked for me many times as well as numerous other LE Officers and Agents.

Not much else I can say.

 

I’ve shot them, and I don’t like them. Unpleasant to shoot and operate. For home defense you can’t beat a shotgun, but I’ll use one with a stock for sure.

 

They are not for everyone, that much is sure, I used them successfully, and for me, the ultimate in personal protection.

I don't know about Home Defense anyway, it is all about personal defense wherever I find myself.

I don't have anything dedicated only to home defense.

 

I believe in a battery selected for greatest advantage for a given situation. The shotgun is the dedicated home defense firearm; devastating at close range, but not as effective outside the home as a properly configured rifle. The handgun for home is configured for that role while my carry pistol is optimized for that role.

 

I'm never one to tell someone to not buy a gun the like.
I shan't buy one - not with the alternatives available - but if you want one, have at it.

 

I frequently talk about different guns being fit for different purposes. But, I suspect that thinking grew from my college years relying on guns for sustenance and for making a living. Different game, different guns better suited for a task so my collection grew, because I never found that magic one dream gun and round that fit every role. And, then, there were those of historic or of curious interest. I had the same issue regarding knives. But when the hypotheticals pop up, like if you could only have 3... or one, what would you choose, my answers might be surprising. It’s not unlike being asked a favorite song or movie.
BTW, for CCW, I have several options (gun/round/carry method combo), depending on occasion, physical activity, potential threat likelihood, and other considerations.
Screw drivers and hammers are all tools, but....

 

One point of view between a double barrel shotgun, and an AR15 for home defense.



Another POV

 

Dunno, many have never been in a gun fight, my ideas were molded differently I suppose, I love versatility, and I am used to with few exceptions, grabbing a firearm and utilizing it, so it it is LE ready stuff mostly.

I loved revolvers, and handguns of the configurations that I feel due to handling characteristics suit me best and have worked for me in the past.

Cheers.

 

Here's the bottom line on stockless pistol grip shotguns. I have a lot of time on tactical shotguns. They're called cruisers and in LEO and less so in military circles they are used as breaching weapons firing a specialized shell that removes hinges from doors. With the thug rat crowd they are home made weapons largely designed for concealment and intimidation. All manufactured cruisers are pump/slide action and only a true fool would try to make a homemade in semi-auto.
As a self/home defense weapon they are largely a gimmick and next to useless. Trying to use one, even with low recoil buckshot is difficult and you don't get a bigger pattern. It's a point and shoot weapon with a lot of flash, noise and above all recoil that you have to handle without a stock. Even with a stocked shotgun at home defense ranges you're still using what is essentially a carbine. You can and will miss. Remember you really can't aim it, only point it. There are one or two caveats. The first is to try to use a 20 gauge instead of a 12. It will reduce recoil, but it will still be considerable. The next is to use "shorty shells" that seem to be gaining popularity. They seem to help somewhat. Aguila, Ventura and Nobel manufacture them, however they can be shotgun model specific for good function and reliability is always a huge concern. You can't use them effectively in a semi-auto with one possible very expensive exception.
If you want a good home-defense shotgun get a pump action, short barreled 18.5 barrel and extended mag with a straight stock and no pistol grip and use low recoil buck. You don't need much on it except ghost ring sights and maybe a light and receiver mounted mag carrier. I don't like slings. If you want the next level up get a quality short barreled semi like the FN which is top of the line. IMHO I think stocked shotguns with a pistol grip only provide one thing and that enables you to control the weapon with one hand leaving your weak hand able to do something else. It won't help you shoot better. It's OK for semi-auto's but is total crap on a pump action.

 

"A shotgun is a backwards funnel." Pete Williams. There. That's all you need to know.

 

Ok, lots O' strange opinions there.

In all my time in LE as a LEO,
We never called any shotgun a cruiser, I have heard a marked car called a cruiser.

LE = Law Enforcement, a generic term to describe a typical police capacity, to include F.B.I. and A.T.F. etc
LEO = Law Enforcement Officer,
Those terms seem to be used interchangeably and erroneously on occasion.

I am not selling these shotguns nor advocating their use, or as a general purpose shotgun, and obviously Federal law sees the short barreled shotgun as a restricted and regulated item.

They are not for every purpose or for use by everyone as you can see from the comments and even animosity towards them in general, obviously you are not using a pistol grip shotgun with a short cylinder choke barrel for hunting, well Duh....

A short barreled pistol grip shotgun has a finite use as would a dedicated Home Defense shotgun, and in that case, you are not concerned with length so much and a standard Patrol Shotgun such as you find in a standard Police Cruiser, locked into the shotgun rack will suffice.

A standard stocked Remington 870 with an 18 inch barrel, although I have on occasion used a Remington 1100 with an extended magazine, the slug barrel with Rifle sights and cylinder choke yielding good accuracy out to 100 meters with rifled slugs.

Anywho, sound is another considerable issue, those short barreled shotguns are NOT quiet.

I had an interest once in 12 guage adapters that chambered a .38 special round for pest control or plinking, and I purchased one that had a bit of rifling, a three inch adapter.

I also had a few made, smoothbore, and the adapter use in a standard shotgun was very quiet with normal .38 special.
Only an oddity, not a practical item in any way.

Reference Link various adapters

https://www.ebay.com/i/152051830046?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-117182-37290-0%2F2%3Fmpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fi%252F152051830046%253Fchn%253Dps%26itemid%3D152051830046%26targetid%3D412507528691%26device%3Dm%26adtype%3Dpla%26googleloc%3D9032941%26poi%3D%26campaignid%3D1058342136%26adgroupid%3D52757899875%26rlsatarget%3Dpla-412507528691%26abcId%3D1133856%26merchantid%3D114765948%26gclid%3DCj0KCQjw1NzZBRCoARIsAIaMwutBwevEs2mCazl7xui4zam7pjk7VCc58lgqPS1fLd11G3QO1o-QvMYaAhJbEALw_wcB%26srcrot%3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1583132179082%26rvr_ts%3D51e8f2bc1640ab6b6ac55516fffa8913

The OP shotgun question must eventually have an answer that is dependent on the user as many may find it unsuitable, perhaps in the same manner as who you would ask on a date or ask to marry, obviously.