Question For Pro Lifers: Is It Okay To Coerce A Woman Into Keeping Her Baby?

You don't know there were thousands more abortions. You don't know there were ONLY a few hundred maternal deaths. Doctors helped cover up the cause of abortion complication deaths out of sympathy for the families.

Abortion was legal for only part of 1973. So the up and down of abortion numbers had nothing to do with legality.

No, that's talking about late-term abortion when the fetus has severe anomalies incompatible with life. Why should a woman have to endure the last few miserable months of pregnancy when she knows the baby cannot live but a few hours?

 

Sure, but do you really think there were thousands of deaths and only 39 were reported? Even if 90% of the abortions were covered up, which seems like quite a lot, that would mean that there were only 390 women who died from illegal abortions in 1973.

The graph I displayed only measures the abortions annually. There were more abortions in 1974 than there were in 1973. There were more abortions in 1975 than there were in 1974. There were more abortions in 1976 than there were in 1975. There were more abortions in 1977 than there were in 1976. There were more abortions in 1978 than there were in 1977. There were more abortions in 1979 than there were in 1978. There were more abortions in 1980 than there were in 1979. There were more abortions in 1981 than there were in 1980. Abortion was legalized nationally in 1973. Are you saying this is purely coincidental?

Abortions happen whether they're legal or not -- I'm not denying that fact. However, abortion used to be considered murder amongst a lot more people than today in which around half the population accepts abortion as a moral procedure. There absolutely were thousands more abortions after it was legalized as is seen by the chart I provided. What another user brought up was that, if you include the death of an unborn baby as a death, there are less deaths if you legalize abortions because of the lack of maternity deaths. However, this is a false statement. We're talking about thousands of more abortions performed each year but only a few hundred, at the very most, women who haven't died as a result of legalized abortion. According to the CDC, in 1972, when only 5 states legalized abortion, 24 women died from legal abortions while 39 died from illegal abortions. There are well over a million abortions performed each year -- 15 lives is not significant in the slightest when we're talking about those types of numbers.

That breaks down into the discussion of if you should be able to kill someone if they are going to die anyway. I'm specifically talking about healthy babies being aborted very late. Should this or should this not be legal?

 

I don't have any idea how many women died from illegal abortions, but I do know it was more than reported. No women should die from illegal abortions, legal abortions are safe.

http://eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_Eile/Numbrs.htm

One thing we can do with this chart is estimate the number of illegal abortions performed.

In 1973 eg there were 615,831 legal abortions and these resulted in 25 deaths and the deaths from illegal abortions numbered 21. Since in truth the abortion providers both legal and illegal were at that time pretty similar in skill we could anticipate that there were also ~600,000+ illegal abortions performed or in total ~1,200,000 abortions in 1973. There really was not an increase in the number of abortions performed by legalizing - just a huge decrease in women's deaths from them, as the skill, and surroundings in which abortions were performed, improved.

The primary concern about abortion when it was a criminal act was the safety of the woman. Nobody talked about abortion being "murder." There are not thousands more abortions performed yearly, the evidence is that about a million abortions per year were being performed in the early 1970's.

Healthy babies are NOT being aborted very late unless they are threatening the woman's health or life, and even then medical personnel do everything they can to save the baby. Women DON'T remain pregnant for 8 months and then suddenly decide on a whim they want to abort. Just DOES NOT happen. The only reason I object to criminalizing late-term abortion is that it may hamstring a doctor when a woman needs one for her own health. There are always borderline cases, and I don't want a doctor prosecuted because someone else thought an abortion unnecessary.

 

Sure, but that number is very insignificant when we're talking about up in the millions.

1.) Your source assumes when abortion was legalized, only half the woman who got abortions would get them done legally... that's kind of like saying if marijuana were legal, half the people who would smoke it would buy it illegally. That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me.
2.) Your source says illegal abortion is just as safe as legal abortion while you have contradicted this statement above when you said:
No women should die from illegal abortions, legal abortions are safe.
3.) Even if it were "about" the same, do you honestly think it was the same within 15 abortions?

People still talk about abortion being murder so I'm not sure where you're getting that no one said that.

Now it's more than 1.2 million a year, which means there's 200,000 more, which is "thousands more."

Irrelevant whether it happens or not. When's the last time you heard about someone jumping off an 8-story building, landing on someone's neck with a chain saw, slicing the guy's head off, subsequently shattering the glass of the cab that's next to him, slicing the limbs off the taxi driver, then doing a little dance at the end? Answer: it does NOT happen. Legalize the practice?

And I don't want a baby wrongfully murdered because someone made a mistake.

 

No, that's incorrect. The year is 1973, abortion became legal during that year, so for part of the year abortion was illegal. The number of deaths from abortion from legal and illegal sources were close to the same, so it is reasonable to assume that the numbers of abortion were close to the same.

The safety of abortion was calculated close to the time abortion became legal. The safety of legal abortion has improved since 1973.

"Abortion is murder" is a recent addition to the language, it was added by the religious right in their fight against abortion. It was never a concern prior to RvW.

Abortion numbers fluctuate, influenced more by economic conditions than anything.

Is anyone lobbying to legal that practice? Are more people dying from criminalizing the practice than if it were legal?

Mistakes happen all the time. There is no evidence to suggest that "babies" are being mistakenly aborted. Late-term abortions are so extremely rare that they shouldn't even be a topic for discussion, and yet, and yet, that is what anti-choicers bring up time after time.

 

Now all you have to do is demonstrate that it was the legalization that caused the spike and that the data is accurate for 1973.

 

Proof of that is what?

 

what's the big deal about spiked abortions? I think a judge should determine whether or not a pregnant woman should be able to keep her baby -- if the judge says it's a poor family or w/e, there can be a warrant granted for aborting the fetus. Of course, if the judge says it's fine to have the kid, it's perfectly fine to get an abortion anyway.

 

I would never allow another human being to decide what someone could do with their reproductive system.

 

Nor would or should any rational person.

 

WRONG! Even Roe V Wade disagrees with you! Abortions aer illegal after a certain age!

 

Please do not delude yourself. I said nothing that is in conflict with Roe, nor did I intend to.

 

They ruled in January...

Are you suggesting it wasn't the government's regulations that made abortion safer, but the free market's openness and availability of the necessary equipment that was the improvement?

This is from a so-called pro-choice website:

Contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church has not always opposed abortion. In fact, for centuries abortion was not considered murder — until 1588 when Pope Sixtus V declared it so. However, only three years later, Pope Gregory XIV revoked all ecclesiastical penalties for abortion, provided that it took place before the soul was "animated." The church rule therefore allowed that abortion was to be considered murder only if performed after the soul became rational or "animated." The time for animation was set at forty days after conception for a male fetus, and eighty or ninety days after conception for a female fetus. (There was no explanation how the sex of the fetus would be determined.) It was not until 1869 that Pope Pius IX finally declared that the Catholic Church would regard abortion at any stage as murder. http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9407/myths.html​

Legality has absolutely nothing to do with the decision whatsoever?

No one is lobbying to legalize the practice, yet so-called pro-choicers are lobbying to legalize a practice on the same principle on which you would legalize that.

10,000 a year is something...

Legality has nothing to do with anything... you're so right.

Surely, legalizing murder won't drive up murder. I say legalize it. It's my choice to flex my finger -- even if it oh-so-happens to be on a trigger of a gun which is pointed to your head! It's my finger!

 

And it took some time to make abortion available. If legal abortion was readily available for the whole year, why were there so many deaths from illegal abortion?

And because it was legal, doctors were free to implement new techniques, and to study how it is done.

Catholic teachings did not make throughout the population. Laws forbidding abortion were passed for several reasons: 1. the procedure was dangerous for the woman, 2. the fear that immigrants would outbreed white citizens, and 3. to ensure that the medical procedure would be done by medical doctors rather than the midwives who were cutting into MD's income.

No.

I don't believe anyone is lobbying to legalize late-term abortions, although many protested the criminalization in the first place.

The question is HOW MANY ARE ELECTIVE? Women are simply not choosing to have late-term abortions. They are medically necessary or indicated.

Since murder has been a crime in every society which has had rules, we cannot calculate whether it would increase. Abortion has been legal, then illegal, then legal, and it has been legal in some countries, illegal in others. The comparison is there for anyone to observe.

 

I fail to see how or why the declaration by the Pope supports your assertion.

That is silly at best.
You can either offer support or not?

 

Whether you intended to or not you did cupcake.

 

Right, except as usual you can not show where or how. yea we know you just assert but can not support.

 

It would be shocking if it was. There are twice as many of us today as there were in 1973.

 

You can't get an abortion if you're 65 years old?

 

Read back through the thread. It is right there.

 

Fact. Better ways are out there.

Carry as in lug around in walmart? Or deal with pregnancy? Raped? Either are avoidable(except rape obviously...) if you are more careful/responsible concerning your reproductive organs. If you want to have sex with zero risk of pregnancy, tie your tubes. Men too. More importantly for the females though because even after a man gets his tied there is still about 20 ejaculations worth of 'live rounds' so to speak. Many children are born from recently sterilized men.

Basically, if you aren't willing to take precautions about pregnancy I think you should give junior to a family who will want him/her more than you do. Instead of whacking the little one. But that is my two cents.

Certainly there are a few idiots out there who think this on both the right and the left. My opinion is coercion = fail. But seriously, you can't possibly be thinking this is what runs through our heads most the time. Coercion = fail.

Coercion = fail. However, I do think it is only fair that if a woman deems she must have an abortion, that she should sterilize herself so as to remove her from this position of stupidity in the future. When she is all grown up, she can fix her girly parts. Same with men.

 

Question for pro-lifers: Is it okay to coerce your baby into being mutilated and prematurely sucked out of the uterus?

Sorry, the mother and fetus are in the same boat. The mother has an obligation to at least row the fetus to shore. After all, it was the mother who brought the fetus into the boat through her actions, whether intentionally or not.

 

I think you mean Question for pro-choicers.

Ok, lets make this nice and simple for you.

Point 1 : You cannot coerce a fetus to do anything, coerce means to persuade an unwilling person to do something by use of force or threats .. please explain how it is even remotely possible to persuade a fetus that has no sentience to do anything.
Point 2 : Its not a baby
Point 3 : Only late term abortions require for the fetus to be surgically removed, of which non are elective, they are only performed for medical reasons and as you well know illegal after 24 weeks in almost every single country that has legal abortion

So you have started with a false premise, therefore it can be concluded that the rest of your statement is also false.

Try Again.

There is also an obligation to do everything medically possible to sustain a "retarded" baby, but that doesn't bother you does it, you still want it killed.

 

Depends very much on your definition of late-term, and your definition of "medical reasons". Fact is, babies are being aborted for non-medical reasons, even after viability.

I don't know what your definition of "late-term" is, but last I checked late term second trimester abortions for non-medical reason are legal in the USA, and for women deemed to be of "low economic standing" in my country. When the woman can feel the baby kicking, how is that not late term?!?

That does not mean it is not frequently performed. Many abortion clinics are routinely willing to perform abortions when they know the pregnancy is passed 24 weeks, especially under "extenuating circumstances" (= for social reasons, not medical). Abortion is the least regulated industry in America. There's no oversight. Abortion doctors ply their trade as they see fit, for the most part.

I am not sure about the details, but I read the Democrats defeated the proposed Born Alive Protection Act. Even if the baby is not yet 24 weeks, sometimes they are still being born alive in abortion clinics and discarded.

We can argue about the definition of words, but basically late-term babies are being routinely aborted for non-medical reasons. I have clearly explained this in another thread:
http://www.politicalforum.com/abortion/266663-late-term-abortions-real-reasons-they-performed.html

 

That's just hogwash. Most states prohibit abortion after viability unless the life or health of the woman is threatened. You have NO evidence those laws are being violated. Many states are so eager to pass anti-abortion regulations, one wonders how they do anything else. Many of the new regulations are purely TRAP laws. From personhood laws to sonogram requirements to vaginal ultrasounds, non-medical legislators believe they have a right to regulate women's bodies.


http://www.guttmacher.org/media/inthenews/2012/01/05/endofyear.html

By almost any measure, issues related to reproductive health and rights at the state level received unprecedented attention in 2011. In the 50 states combined, legislators introduced more than 1,100 reproductive health and rights-related provisions, a sharp increase from the 950 introduced in 2010. By year’s end, 135 of these provisions had been enacted in 36 states, an increase from the 89 enacted in 2010 and the 77 enacted in 2009. (Note: This analysis refers to reproductive health and rights-related “provisions,” rather than bills or laws, since bills introduced and eventually enacted in the states contain multiple relevant provisions.)
Fully 68% of these new provisions—92 in 24 states—-restrict access to abortion services, a striking increase from last year, when 26% of new provisions restricted abortion. The 92 new abortion restrictions enacted in 2011 shattered the previous record of 34 adopted in 2005.