"Raising Children Without the Concept of Sin"

There is not a binary choice between occasionally using spanking, and interacting with children in order to teach them good behavior. My wife and I used both with our boys, and yes, we have mutual trust and respect. (also depression is not a behavior, it's a consequence of body chemistry).

 

Yes, but children aren't cognitively able to use conscience and instinct. It takes time and maturation to learn that. While learning that, kids need to be told. (see Piaget's views of development)

 

And, my bet would be that a respectful, observant, energetic and engaged parent who occasionally used physical punishment will have more control over their child than the one who simply uses mental torture (aka grounding, confiscation, etc.).

 

Nobody is defending physical abuse. I'm against it. We differ in our definition of abuse. A swat to the rear is not abuse.

 

Good catch!

That should have read CORPORAL punishment!

Mea culpa!

 

The problem is that it is impossible for an enraged parent to judge the harshness of the physical punishment that they are using. What might be a "swat" to a 10 year old is a BEATING to a 2 year old.

My opposition to ALL physical punishment lies in the fact that there is no means of measuring the harm caused to the child. We know that for a given density of wood it requires X amount of pounds of force to drive a nail into it. We do NOT know how many pounds of force to apply to that "swat" given that the variables of age and size of the unfortunate children on the receiving end.

Your point about the spanking vs the grounding actually supports my position. The child does something that is does not know is wrong, it is physically abused and then the parent rewards the child with affection afterwards. The lesson learned by the child is that if it wants attention and affection then it just needs to do something wrong. Compare that to being grounded. Now the child is denied access to what it wants to do and is left to try and figure out for themselves why they are being punished. They did something wrong and the resulting penalty was enough to make it come to a conclusion that repeating the bad behavior will not be rewarded.

The use of grounding teaches the child to THINK about what they did and it eliminates the risks of the parents causing permanent physical harm, including brain damage, to their child as well as alienating their child and causing a loss of trust when they reach puberty which can lead to depression, delinquency and potential drug abuse.

The fundamental question is why would any parent do that to their own child given that there are better alternatives available?

 

What we do know (or assume) is that lessons are learnt by different methods with specific results. Beating your child is a wonderful thing if when he flies the nest he has to battle with gang members. I suppose you can flesh-wound shoot your children if you are preparing them for war.

All joking aside, too many parents are motivated by their own personal weak character and they don't give a crap about the future of their children as long as they cower. So right from the git-go the parents are working with blunt instruments, falsely achieving respect through fear rather than understanding.

" ... and so it goes" Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

 

We evolved language in order to better communicate with each other but some still insist upon using primitive physical punishment because they haven't figured out how to communicate with their own children.

Yes, it is frustrating when a child does not listen to their parent but figuring out how to get their attention without physically abusing them is what parenting is all about IMO.

Too bad so many parents are not prepared to take the work of parenting seriously.

Referencing your point about cowering children it makes one wonder if the perpetuation of this odious behavior by the parents who do it is because of "payback" given the way that they were obviously raised or because just don't have the ability to understand that they are just perpetuating the same poor parenting that was, quite literally, beaten into them as children?

 

I don't think you necessarily need to believe in an afterlife to know what sin is, though a bit of wisdom would help.

 

It should be.

I think too many procreate for the wrong reasons to begin with, similar to the reason why many begin smoking.

I agree.

I saved this for last because it is a pet peeve of mine. Your very first sentence:

"We evolved language in order to better communicate with each other..."

I don't know where you are from but have you ever been to the U.S? That is a nation without a language. None at all. It is perhaps not surprising that everyone has a gun and that more shootings take place there than any other spot on the earth. It is a whole population restricted to cliches and grammatic stumblings. If you want examples I can give you a whole page of them. So I cannot agree with the second part of that sentence ....

" ... but some still insist upon using primitive physical punishment ..."

There is no but about it because the first part is false. They have not "evolved language" at all. In short, I agree with you completely that lack of language skills is the culprit, or as you say ...

"... they haven't figured out how to communicate with their own children."

 

I am an American and yes, I agree with you that our use of our own language is sub-optimal. I was, and still am, a great fan of the late Bill Buckley jr because he was a Master of the use of language. He clearly understood that proficiency in expressing oneself is the highest form of "martial art" because it uses the weakness of the opponent to defeat themselves. We do ourselves a disservice by denigrating education and learning and believing that television is the ultimate form of communication.

So when I was speaking about having "evolved language in order to better communicate" I was using it entirely in the generic sense. English has become the de facto common language of the world but that is at the most basic level. We all need to raise our own standards and unfortunately, it if through READING, not watching TV, that it will happen. Encouraging reading in the very young is one of my own personal passions because that is where the change must happen if it is ever going to work.

 

Oh! I also liked Wm. Buckley! Have you seen the film "Best of Enemies"? It's still on Netflix. See it! You'll love it!

You're a good man. Yes, languages are important to learn. I speak 4 myself. Here, children start learning English in the 2nd. class. My son, who's almost 12, can already speak and understand English very well and at times his grammar is better than ... uh .....um .... er ...... certain people whose mother tongue is English.

 

I daresay it's too much for anyone to handle, but it's just compensation for anyone who murders.

Wherever there is a child who cannot hear the voice of conscience, you can pretty well bet the farm there's bad parenting involved.

 

"I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence." ~William F. Buckley

..broad brushes do not paint good detail..

Just anti-American bigotry, but might as well jump on the bandwagon. We are a dying culture, that has forgotten our roots and mission statement. Bash away! ..though the future world, without the American hegemony looks pretty grim..

 

You are looking in the wrong direction if you want to cure the ailment. The U.S. has no "roots" to "forget". And as far as "culture" goes it seems to be fundamentally superficial and advertising P.R. You can't even say "The Grand Canyon". No, you have to say "Wonderful Grand Canyon" or "Enjoy Disneyland". What is American culture? Coca Cola? Blue jeans? Baseball caps? What about mass shootings of schools and drive-bys and road rage shoot-em-ups? Those are the things the world think of when they think of American "culture". That's what I think of as well.

There is, however, a tiny glimmer of specific American culture that is both good and positive but I guess it's only in music. Jazz obviously, but also Aaron Copeland, Ferde Grofé, and George Gershwin. Cowboys? Yes, I think so too. No, I do not think of rap music being cultural any more than Plastic Bertrand is Belgian culture. It's all a joke.

 

All i see here are caricatures of pop America, promoted by a biased media. This is not middle America. This is not my father's America. This is not my America.

I may be the last free American, and a lone voice of one who remembers the ideals of an ideology that once Moved the World.

You can keep your propaganda narratives, from anti-American detractors, but the end of America, as an Ideal for humanity, is a sad event in human history.

 

I think the nature versus nuture discussion has been resolved to the belief that behavior is a mix of both.

 

I don't think this is universal. Certainly, 'good parenting', is a positive, and gives the child a better chance to succeed.

But plenty of anti social behavior is from kids from 'good' homes.. other siblings did well, but a black sheep went another direction. I do not see this as ALWAYS attributable to 'bad parenting'. Humans are not programmable robots. They choose their own way. And just as many stable, successful people have come from 'bad' homes, so many anti-social people have come from 'good' homes.

I am forced to leave the terms, 'good and bad', as self-evident appeals to a common morality and conscience.

 

"Conservatives pride themselves on resisting change, which is as it should be. But intelligent deference to tradition and stability can evolve into intellectual sloth and moral fanaticism, as when conservatives simply decline to look up from dogma because the effort to raise their heads and reconsider is too great.“ — William F. Buckley Jr.

 

“The Democrats seem to be basically nicer people, but they have demonstrated time and again that they have the management skills of celery. They're the kind of people who'd stop to help you change a flat, but would somehow manage to set your car on fire. I would be reluctant to entrust them with a Cuisinart, let alone the economy. The Republicans, on the other hand, would know how to fix your tire, but they wouldn't bother to stop because they'd want to be on time for Ugly Pants Night at the country club” ~Dave Barry

 

American culture is not one single thing because it has it's origins in so many other different cultures.

The pop "culture" is a sea of dross with the occasional pearl to be found. Not all rap music is crap. Hidden in there you will find things like Hamilton which rise above the rest. This is not all that different to other forms of culture. For every Mozart there are thousands of compositions not worth the paper that they are written on. For every Rembrandt there are millions of canvases that litter the "galleries" at sea side resorts.

The misfortune of the gun "culture" being nefariously exploited for the malign purpose of generating greater profits for the wealthy is just another aspect of the general exploitation of capitalism by the greed and avarice of the Wall Street Casino Bosses. They put the concept of "blood diamonds" to shame given that the NRA has openly embraced putting firearms in the hands of the mentally unstable.

America as a nation is still in it's adolescence and it does need to grow up IMO. That can't happen soon enough as far as I am concerned.

 

I gather that you did not appreciate that Dave Barry was painting Democrats as charitable and well meaning while Republicans are selfish and snobbish.

 

That's for sure.

I don't think so.

Your head is being held hostage by your own government. I am not anti-American and I don't spew propaganda narratives. I just tell it like it is. I was going to add a few more positive things about Ameican culture (to my previous post) but I just changed my mind.

 

YOU - ARE - GOOD. And I can see that you've been to a few sea-side "galleries".

 

Something tells me "good" homes are one thing, and good homes, quite another.

You're missing the point. The quote I responded to was about the capability of children, not their actions.

That's the ideal. Once they sin they become very programmable indeed.

Is that what Christ did?

Sure don't look like it from here; and on the other side of it, all who sin are servants of sin, so how are they free to choose?