Shroud of Turin

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by YouLie, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Paul used a lot of Greek philosophy and almost identical quotes/words from the works of Greek and Roman Philosophers.
     
  2. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Totally irrelevant.
    Various parts of the earth have undergone change at different times. No necessity for a world wide flood. There are fossils in many mountains where continental shifts have forced seabeds to rise against another continent. Currently the Himalayas are being forced upwards, though weather erosion is keep]ng the height fairly stable. These were part of the ocean millions of years ago. The article proves nothing.
     
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  3. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he was tailoring it to his audience. The theology was the same as Jesus', from whom Paul stated he was taught.
     
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  4. Paul7

    Paul7 Well-Known Member

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    So let me guess, you just disbelieve history when it comes to the Bible?

    It is taught he discovered America. To say he didn't discover America because it was already there is like saying Marie Curie didn't discover radium and no planet has ever been discovered.

    That's Dan Brown stuff.
     
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  5. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Some of it can be corroborated.
    Much of it can't.
    For instance, a world wide flood, an Exodus out of Egypt as a couple of examples of bad history according to the bible.

    We know there was a Roman empire. So there is some truth in the bible in regards to history. But I would not use the bible as a history book.

    America had been found much earlier by Norse.
    Leif Erickson, being one.

    And of course, the America was already inhabited.

    Wouldn't know about Dan Brown stuff.
    I've heard of him. He had some program or something?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  6. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  7. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Most Greeks are atheists, so he's not the only one. Russians scientists did make a study of the Holy Fire and what they found is in the video. Their conclusion is that it is an actual occurrence and not a hoax or a fraud as some want to believe.

     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  8. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And Homer wrote about Troy centuries after it happened, and people thought it was a nice tale - but guess what, Troy did exist, and Schliemann found it and proved it. Schliemann made another discovery as well. He noticed that the further down he went the more primitive the societies were until he came to the last one. Underneath all the mud and shark bones was a highly advanced civilization, even more advanced than the top layer which was Helen's Troy.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  9. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    So, some possible corroboration.
     
  10. Bippy123

    Bippy123 Active Member

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    Todd they found billrubin blood which is another sign from a tortured individual .
     
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  11. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

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    Or just anything, since we are making stuff up anyway.
     
  12. Capn Awesome

    Capn Awesome Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus wants me to believe in the shoud of turin, he can come back and tell us all about it. Seems a lot easier than all this nonsense.
     
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  13. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Paul was also trained in Greek philosophy. It was part of his training by Gamaliel.
    An actual occurrence occurred. A million occurrences occur every day in the world. Many cannot be explained. Are they miracles? No one knows that this is even Jesus tomb. Because someone 'decides' it is so the church decides it must be. Why? Because this was Constantine's mother. Would you have contradicted her? The roman Church has more relics of the 'saints' and 'apostles' to fill a museum. Even the actual steps that Jesus trod in Pilates Palace.. And they're in the Vatican. What a laugh. Again it's down to Helena.
     
  14. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Entirely the point.
    People make something up, make the story seem real, and many fall for it.
     
  15. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Look, you can believe whatever you want, that is your right. But you did mention something about the Holy Fire being a hoax, and I posted a video explaining what the Russian scientists found.

    As for it being the actual burial place of Jesus, well this is what the archeologists found when they repaired the Edicule enclosing the tomb. Here are a few excerpts from National Geographic.


    When the marble cladding was first removed on the night of October 26, an initial inspection by the conservation team from the National Technical University of Athens showed only a layer of fill material underneath. However, as researchers continued their nonstop work over the course of 60 hours, another marble slab with a cross carved into its surface was exposed. (It was tested later on and dated to the time of Constantine).

    By the night of October 28, just hours before the tomb was to be resealed, the original limestone burial bed was revealed intact.

    "I'm absolutely amazed. My knees are shaking a little bit because I wasn't expecting this,” said Fredrik Hiebert, National Geographic's archaeologist-in-residence. "We can't say 100 percent, but it appears to be visible proof that the location of the tomb has not shifted through time, something that scientists and historians have wondered for decades."

    When Constantine's representatives arrived in Jerusalem around A.D. 325 to locate the tomb, they were allegedly pointed to a temple built by the Roman emperor Hadrian some 200 years earlier. Historical sources suggest that Hadrian had the temple built over the tomb to assert the dominance of Roman state religion at the site venerated by Christians.

    According to Eusebius, Bishop of Caesarea, the Roman temple was razed and excavations beneath it revealed a rock-cut tomb. The top of the cave was sheared off to expose the interior, and a church was built around it to enclose the tomb. The church was completely destroyed by the Fatimids in 1009 and rebuilt in the mid-11th century.

    Excavations inside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre during the 20th century revealed remains of what is believed to be Hadrian's temple and walls from Constantine's original church.

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/10/jesus-christ-tomb-burial-church-holy-sepulchre/


     
  16. trevorw2539

    trevorw2539 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I suggest you read the whole article. There's no evidence that this tomb was anything other than a tomb of a rich man. There were many tombs in that area. and they were used more than once. A body was deposited, after due preparations, in a tomb. When the body had decayed and just the bones were left, they were often interred in an ossary, and the cave/tomb used again..
     
  17. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Attempting to use details and reality will be ineffective with this one...just enjoy the ramble.
     
  18. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Why not. Is human blood a rare commodity?

    People have bred plants for possibly 11 thousands years.

    But suppose the pollen is from Jerusalem and the blood is human. So what?
     
  19. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    An of course no human ever generated endorphins as a result of an act that caused bleeding?
     
  20. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I should think the devotion of Christians for 2,000 years would be enough - even without the Holy Fire.

     
  21. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Your claimed evidence that a supernatural event was required to create the shroud is BS.
    https://www.cogwriter.com/shroud-of-turin.htm

    Scientist re-creates Turin Shroud to show it's fake
    October 7, 2009

    (CNN) -- An Italian scientist says he has reproduced one of the world's most famous Catholic relics, the Shroud of Turin, to support his belief it is a medieval fake, not the cloth Jesus was buried in.

    Luigi Garlaschelli created a copy of the shroud by wrapping a specially woven cloth over one of his students, painting it with pigment, baking it in an oven (which he called a "shroud machine") for several hours, then washing it.

    His result looks like the cloth that many Christians through the centuries have believed is the actual burial shroud of Jesus, he told CNN.

    "What you have now is a very fuzzy, dusty and weak image," he said. "Then for the sake of completeness I have added the bloodstains, the burns, the scorching because there was a fire in 1532."

    Garlaschelli says his work disproves the claims of the shroud's strongest supporters.

    "Basically the Shroud of Turin has some strange properties and characteristics that they say cannot be reproduced by human hands," he told CNN by phone from Italy, where he is a professor of organic chemistry at the University of Pavia.

    "For example, the image is superficial and has no pigment, it looks so lifelike and so on, and therefore they say it cannot have been done by an artist."

    His research shows the pigment may simply have worn off the cloth over the centuries since it was first "discovered" in 1355, but impurities in the pigment etched an image into the fibers of the cloth, leaving behind the ghostly picture that remains today.

    "The procedure is very simple. The artist took this sheet and put it over one of his assistants," he said.

    "His good idea was to wrap the sheet over the person underneath because he didn't want to obtain an image that was too obviously a painting or a drawing, so with this procedure you get a strange image," said Garlaschelli.

    "Time did the rest," he said. ...
     
  22. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's what you get for "Thinking"....
     
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  23. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And how would you know it's Jesus, wouldn't you deny Him the way you deny everything else?
     
  24. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Expanding earth theory? What's next?
     
  25. ToddWB

    ToddWB Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That was debunked several post back.. keep up.. and it's true .. I used "endorphins", Bippyq123 correctly noted it was "billrubin". I, for one, believe and have experienced supernatural events.. note my post on an otherworldly presence in two of my houses.
     

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