Paul they are dodging your posts as well as mine and other honest posts here because the shroud hits very close to home and when people are all emotionally tied to their worldview like alpha, and Taikoo are they have no choice and can't honestly follow the evidence to its reasonable and logical conclusion. They must lie, dodge, evade and ridicule every chance they get. There are over 100 peer reviewed papers available on the shroud from shroud.com and they will not study the majority of them. Wanna know why? Because they majority of them point towards the shroud's authenticity. I think its best to just leave these posts as they are as their only goal is to add volume to make it much harder for seeker and honest agnostics to go through it all conveniently. My mission here has been accomplished and the seed has been planted in the minds of alpha , Taikoo and the rest of the atheist stooges, and they will one day go back and do a thorough research on the shroud when they will admit to being biased. Right now they will deny the evidences like spoiled brats . If you tell a spoiled brat that something is bad for them an explain logically why,they will not care and they will proceed to do it anyways and cry and stomp their feet. As I stated on my first few posts, the shroud of turin is every atheists worst nightmare (alpha the atheist included, he tried to fool me but couldn't) and it will cause them to abandon science, reason, logic and rational to avoid these evidences. In other words it exposes atheists for what they really are Keep up the good fight paul, youlie and the others. How you guys have put up with these antiscience, anti reason ignoramuses is a testament to yoir Christian patience and charity . My new phew is in high school and he's can smoke these guys lol
I said nothing about a lab. There are plenty of events that have been observed, recorded, and understood without repeating them in a lab. We know a ton about the stars and our universe without any of it being studied in a lab. My contention is that you're saying an admitted one-off event is the most reasonable explanation for your evidence for the one-off event. I'm saying that's ludicrous. The Shroud is allegedly evidence of a resurrection that has never before been seen before, wasn't seen first hand, and has never been seen since. You're claiming that the best explanation for the Shroud is this event that it supposedly is evidence of. It's the worst kind of circular argument that also claims that all other reasonable, repeatedly observed explanations are less reasonable than this one off event that has a single, contentious source. If you were talking about anything other than a key component of a major religion, no one would give you the time of day. Let's breakdown the supposed evidence: Meaningless since that description is and was widely available. Any forger could use it as a guide. In fact, I'd say the perfect match to the description is evidence against it since the 2000 year old game of telephone known as repeated retranslation and reinterpretations of the Bible should result in some dissimilarities between the two. The church originally recognized it as a forgery, and they even got a confession from the alleged forger. I don't think their authority on the subject is to be appealed to here. This is simply false since at least one person has created a replica and the technology capable of producing such an image has been known from at least the time of Da Vinci. Sorry, but what is "xray information?" X-rays are radiation. And the 3D spatial information has been repeatedly contested. Any 3D graphics artist could tell you the image on the shroud does not line up with something draped or wrapped around a 3D person. You don't know anything about what is involved in a resurrection, or what it can produce (other than a now living body), because one has never actually been observed. How do you know a resurrection produces an image on anything that is around the body? Maybe it just produces a puff of smoke and pleasant, fruity aroma. The Shroud doesn't reasonably point to anything. You've started from the assumption that your god exists and that Christ arose from the dead and you're just fitting the Shroud into that narrative. This is the opposite of science. You (Shroud supporters in general) are making the claim. You don't get to shift the burden of proof to skeptics when your evidence comes up short. There are reasonable, natural, observable, and (importantly) non-contradictory explanations for literally every alleged extraordinary aspect of the shroud. That means we need further evidence to dismiss those explanations before we accept one that has never been observed by anyone. I love the old canard that atheists have an emotional bias against the existence of god. It's so adorable. Ask any atheist if he or she would like to live in a world with a universally benevolent guardian and potential eternal paradise free of want or suffering, and most will say yes. And I'm one of them. The idea of a god and heaven is extremely comforting. But we face a cold reality where many folks would rather take comfort in the most unlikely of myths than deal with life solely in the company of other humans. We have not made up our minds. Many of us would be happy to live in your world if there was reason to believe it actually existed. But the evidence just isn't there. Sure, we're the close-minded ones. That's hilarious.
I can't tell if you're lying by repeating the bold part above, deliberately misrepresenting it (sort of the same thing), or simply being ignorant. The papers linked to on shroud.com are mostly articles presented at Shroud conferences. They have been peer reviewed by other Shroud supporters, but very few, certainly not "over 100," are peer reviewed scientific papers. The couple that are actual scientific research studies seem to be neutral on the authenticity of the Shroud.
The Shroud is a forgery. It was produced by the very best, latest and most closely guarded techniques in such forgery that existed at the time by people who were extremely skilled and extremely knowledgeable in such techniques and highly motivated, both by the large amounts of money that were being paid for "relics" at the time and/or the near certainty of a painful death if they were caught. They were unwittingly assisted in their overall endeavor by the credulous authorities of the day. They still are being. OR, the Shroud is genuine. Christ produced an ultraviolet light when he was resurrected, (which is not even hinted at in the Bible and for which there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever) and his Shroud was put into hiding (which, again, there is no Biblical testimony of) by a group of his followers, most of which were subsequently hunted down by the Romans. These surviving followers and their descendants, who must have had an organization even Dan Brown would find a bit unbelievable, nevertheless not only kept the Shroud safe from all persecutions, they then continued to hide it for over a thousand years despite the fact that it would have been the most well-known and venerated object existing in Late Antiquity had it been revealed. They also somehow prevented the majority of its decay for well over a millenia before it came to light again "by accident" of course. Now, all other things aside and barring any new evidence that comes to light, which of the above seems the SIMPLEST and MOST LIKELY explanation? Oh, and my dictionary defines Scientism as simply the general methods and techniques of Science, which include mainly the ability to demonstrate your point REPEATEDLY to SKEPTICAL OBSERVERS. Just about all you have is like the "evidence" for mental telepathy, etc, all of which, rather conveniently, don't work if "nonbelievers" are "polluting" the "observations" that "prove" their rubbish. To shamelessly mix metaphors, you drowning Shroud believers are grasping at those motes in your detractor's stories and ignoring the beams in your own floating by
Show me a fundamentalist / creationist who does not lie and misrepresent when arguing against any science that contradicts their literal reading of the bible, and I will show you a miracle. Why it would be different for shroudies? There were a whole lot more lies than what you bolded.
It's not circular reasoning at all if the evidence points reasonably to one historic event. The only event that best explains everything that has happened on that shroud, and this is exactly what we on the shroud. Why do we have to understand the resurrection to say that it is the most reasonable explanation for what happened on that shroud. What we have is an image that would be lunacy for any logical human being to believe that any forger could have done this. It fits the historic gospel accounts of what happened to Jesus in his passion and crucifixion to the letter and xray information points to some kind of radiation coming from within the body. This and all the other evidences both historic and scientific seem to point to only one historic event that has happened and that is the resurrection. I don't see anything else that could explain all of these evidences. Just because we don't understand the resurrection doesn't mean we can't say that it is the most reasonable explanation for that image. Why do you think you and your atheist brethren have been fighting tooth and nail all of the evidences against the shroud and presenting only non peer reviewed evidences as yoir gospel truth. Deep inside you know why as well as I do. Absolutely nothing circular about following the evidences to their logical and reasonable conclusion which you and your fellow atheists have shown not to be doing all along. Again twisting the evidence into pretzels. Please tell me an ancient forger that understood things like rigor mortis and how it dissapites within 2 days. Show me middle age forger that understood that a body crucified with the nails through the palms wouldn't hold the body weight and would slide right through. Tell me how this forger would have gone against all known historic art that depicted the nails going through the palms and decide to make it through the wrist in an anatomically correct position that would hold the body up on the cross. Then please show me a forger that would spread billirubin blood instead of regular blood on the shroud. Billirubin blood being from a man that was tortures extensively. These are things that fit the gospel accounts that almost no forger would know about or would need to know about to fool the people of his times. Your showing me that your not interesting in following the truth, but anything that rejects your worldview and points towards Christ. Ok ill explain it to you since you lack the common sense to understand what most kids would be able to understand. If you looked at an xray photo of someone's teeth that is xray information. Did you get it now or should I spell it out for you letter by letter? This is what we see in enhances positive photos from the shroud . And we both know that X-rays come from a form of radiation. If you had bothered to check doctor August Accetta's work you would have understood why he did his research . He was an agnostic before his research and since has gone back to Christianity initially becausw of his studies on the shroud. If you had bothered to read the evidence you would have known that the bishop Darcy letter was debunked a long time ago, and your claim that the church originally said it was a forgery is a bold faced lie. The church never said anything of the sort, in fact that came from a competing bishop that was losing business because people were going over to the church in the next town to view the shroud. The letter were never proven genuine, they were never signed, dated or the alleged forger painter named. And since there was no paint found that came from the image it is now known not to be a painting , but you would have known that if you had done your research instead of looking at one side of it. I have and that is why I can debunk your claims here on this now. Again I don't need to know precisely what entails a resurrection to say that it is the most reasonable explanation do I. What we have happening here is technologically beyond even 21st century science to replicate, we have an image that only the ignorant believe that could have been forged and the evidence points to some radiation event, plus the fact that the church has held onto this throughout the ages ,earlier as the image of eddessa and within the last 700 years as the shroud of turin. The science of today still can't replicate it, it's certainly safe to assume that ancient scientists couldn't also replicate it. Please show me an ancient forger with an xray device. This is only one reason to assume the resurrection as the most reasonable explanation. Notice I didn't say 100% proof as I never claimed to have said. Your lying again and I could prove it. Give me a natural explanation for the xray information in enhanced shroud photos for the hands, wrist, left femur , head, jaw, teeth and gums. Every scientist has tried to explain what happened on this shroud naturally and all have failed. You made an assertion that you can't back up and it is precisely because your too scared to be honest enough to say that there is no natural explanation . Ray Rogers is an agnostic and because of this he couldn't accept that there wasn't a naturalistic explanatiinforbthat image and that is why he came out with the mallard reaction . This was the one time he had failed and it was because he had an emotional bias based on his worldview as an agnostic and as a believer in materialism.his explanation failed. Your assertion her has been debunked. Your lips say yes but your heart says no, and the way you have dodged the evidences that almost all point towards authenticity tell me that you never would want to live in a world with God and eternal paradise. If you did you would have been neutral and honest in following both sides of the equation here in the evidences presented to you. It is clear to any honest person that you are lying my friend . Words mean nothing, it is the actions that tell the intentions of a persons heart, and yours speak loud and clear. You claim the evidence just isn't there but from yoir posts, you have clearly made up your mind before even looking at the evidence . You are the joke my friend. Doctor August Accetta thought the same way you claim to be thinking now, that Christianity and all religions in general are there to comfort us against the cold reality that this is all there is, but it was his scientific research that got him back into his Christian faith. Apparently he must be delusional right lol. It was the shroud that brought him initially back to Christianity, not blind faith as you claim , or comfort going into death. So far you have presented nothing but assertion with some twisted facts thrown in (such as the church saying it was a forgery or fake). I wonder what else you will lie or deceive others here on as part of your claim that you would absolutely want to live in a world where God exists.
Have you actually looked through to see if there are that many or not? If your really interested why not email the owner of the site sturp team member Barrie Schwortz and he will give you the peer reviewed papers. It's apparent that you won't look for them yourself . I'm not talking about papers presented at shroud conferences either as I have read almost all of them myself.
This doesn't work here since almost all the evidence points towards authenticity. Now if it went both ways evenly I would be the first one to agree with you on this, but you conveniently left tiny part out, THE EVIDENCE. If the evidence doesn't point towards authenticity then please debunk all of the points I made. You can't can you and instead you choose to bring up mental telepathy which haven't researched much to compare with the shroud , which you know absolutely nothing about. I made the claim that almost all the evidence points towards authenticity and I think I made a very good argument for that claim. You claim its a forgery and you produced nothing to support your claim. If you define scientism this way then you don't even understand what it is. Professor Joseph Needham though an unbeliever himself warned against this narrow minded philosophical worldview . It's hard to argue with someone that doesn't know his definitions and hasn't even researched the shroud at all. Why haven't you researched the shroud ? We both know why my friend One day you will be honest enough to admit this. Now the atheists here , instead of dealing with the evidences will go on another volume post spree and give us no posts at all dealing with the shroud. This is exactly what I predicted would happen and true to atheist form , this is what they did. Completely predictable and completely why I call atheism an emotional worldview and not an intellectual one.
If there are some who do, they still are honest enough to say they have faith, someone you denied the whole time on this thread Taikoo , even while claiming it was never proven to be blood on the shroud. Your what we call a hypocrite. Christians like me and others can offer reasons why we hold to the faith, but what possibly could be the reason why you hold onto your worldview? That's what I call a true nutcase.
Yeah, I looked through the ones listed on the site. You claimed "there are over 100 peer reviewed papers available on the shroud from shroud.com," but there certainly aren't over 100 peer reviewed scientific papers linked anywhere on there. The majority of them say something like "This presentation was originally delivered at," followed by a Shroud conference. There are nine that are actually from a peer reviewed scientific source. That's a far cry from "over 100." To repeat from my other post, you made the claim. You don't get to shift the burden of proof when your evidence comes up short. Also, like I said in the post you quoted, maybe you just meant peer reviewed by other Shroud supporters. If that's the case, then feel free to correct me. Don't keep trying to pretend you have some mountain of scientific evidence that we're ignoring, though.
Im kinda stumped why you act the way you do. The way you feel its ok to make things up, spread calumny and falsehood and claim to be a "Christian". I see you are not about to pay attention to a request to cut it out. You are a disgrace to any faith to which you pretend allegiance.
Yes or when he doesn't have his daddy and hero alpha to try to bail him out when he speaks out of pure ignorance. The problem this time is that his hero alpha followed in taikoo's own footsteps and spoke from ignorance . Taikoo are you gonna speak spouting the same nonsense or will you finally do some research of your own on the shroud instead of relying on your ignorant buddy alpha to keep you in the dark. Is it too much to ask you to have an actual mind of your own when you speak on a subject? 5 years of research is why I can speak about the shroud and many years of hearing the same debunked arguments from atheists like u and alpha. Hey I know what happened. Since you have abandoned science when it comes to the shroud I'll make it easy on you. Elvis came back to life and had aliens imprint his image and change it to make it look like it was Jesus. It was the reptilians that did it!!!! It was the bloody reptilians lol.
I don't know if it is intentional or just ignorance, but please try and keep up here. As Bippy has demonstrated, your simplistic 'paint' theory is bunk, modern science can't explain how that image was made. You don't get my question, which was why did the medieval 'forgers' implant pollen, flower images, and dirt from the Jerusalem area on the shroud if there was no means back then to detect those things on behalf of said pilgrims. And why would they use fabric of a weave used from Jesus' time? Those must have been some sophisticated pilgrims, LOL. Cite? Actually, the Shroud is one of the most studied artifacts of the ancient world. Really, was Joe's shroud studied by scientists and found to be identical to the real Shroud? Rebutted above by Bippy. Funny, when cornered you guys throw out everything but the kitchen sink, all of it without evidence. I understand your desperation, if genuine, the Shroud is essentially photographic evidence of the resurrection, you know that event you claimed the apostles made up.
Taikoo , paul brought up almost the same evidences on the shroud that I did. If bringing good scientific evidence as well as historical evidence is considered calumny then you need help my friend. Now will you forget everyone on here and take up my challenge to research the shroud honestly for a year to come up with your own conclusion or do you have to get permission from alpha to do that? While your at it ask him if its ok to stay up past 10pm.
Correction, taikoo is a she, not he. It's the only mistake you've made on this thread, my friend. - - - Updated - - - You once again prove you are incapable of debate, but really good at personal attacks. Since you and your atheist friends refuse to address Bippy's points, I'll throw out a theory as to your intransigence from a book I'm reading by Phillip Graham Ryken, president of Wheaton College: "When confronted with God, the mind of a sinner never thinks that God's way is good. The will is free to choose God. Nothing is stopping it. But the mind does not regard submission to and service of God as desirable. Rather, it turns from God, even when the gospel is presented most winsomely. It turns away because it does not want God to be sovereign over it. It does not consider the rightousness of God to be the way to personal fulfillment or happiness. It does not want its sinfulness exposed. The mind is wrong in its judgements, of course. The way it chooses is actually the way ofa alienation and misery, the end of which is death. But human beings think that sin is best. Therefore, unless God changes the way we think - which he does by the miracle of the new birth - our minds always tell us to turn from God." This explains the blindness on this forum, and why some who even witnessed the miracles of Chirst refused to make Him King and Lord over their lives.
As you can see Paul, karma mechanic is still bringing up joe nickell as a scientific reference. A former magician that doesn't even have an associates degree in any scientific field and whose whole purpose in life as a magician was to fool people away from the truth . Barrie Schwortz STURP member and owner of shroud?com has challenged joe nickell to a debate many times and the coward ignored his requests every single time. Me thinks that Karma Mechanic is losing his Karma lol. Out of all the atheists I have debated the shroud with these loonies have helped me the most in exposing the fear atheists have about the shroud. karma has shown to us Paul, he has abandoned all reason, logic, rationale and science because like all the other atheists here he is fearful of where that evidence leads . God has a funny way of using the most stubborn of atheists doesn't he. Lol
Please explain why you feel its ok to make things up, spread calumny and falsehood and claim to be a "Christian".
My apologies to Taikoo, I couldn't tell as I didn't view her public profile. I respect all women as I was taught by my mom to. If I didn't I would get the beating of my life . My mom was a tough but loving lady. Please pray for her recovery as she has been reduced to being a vegetable in a nursing home for the last 2 years from a massive stroke Beautiful wisdom my friend, and you hit the nail right on the mark, and it's a shame that they have opted for this way of thinking when Christ showed us his love for us by dying on the cross for all our sins. He was the perfect sacrifice and I get goosebumps just thinking of spending all of eternity with the one God who loves me infinitely and eternally By the way Paul, I think you should pay a visit to the godandscience forum. We also have a shroud of turin thread there as well , but the few atheists that have argued against it aren't atheists anymore but now agnostics It's a small step but a step in the right direction. It is said that all of heaven rejoices when even one soul comes back to Christ, I know we do as well God bless
Even if it only happened once, so what? How many times did the Big Bang happen? Only if you ignore the testimony to the contrary, more circular reasoning. Yes it was. You might want to read this before you say that: http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/resurrection-from-the-dead-pastor-daniel-ekechukwu So where are these reasonable, repeatedly observed explanations of for example, the image on the shroud that modern science can't explain? Already debunked by Bippy. Cite where a replica has been made with all the characteristics of the shroud. Again, only if we ignore all testimony to the contrary. And you're starting from the assumption that God doesn't exist. So where are they? You're holding back on us man, LOL.
You're literally saying that the authenticity of the Shroud supports the resurrection and the resurrection supports the authenticity of the Shroud. That's the definition of circular reasoning. I have made no claims about the nature of a forger. Maybe it was created around the time of the alleged resurrection by someone who saw plenty of crucifixions. I don't know or care. Even if you complain away all other reasonable explanations, that isn't evidence to support a resurrection since you still don't know anything about the physical effects (aside from a return to life) of an actual resurrection. No need to be condescending. Bullying the person you're having a discussion with is not generally the hallmark of those interested in an honest debate. Like I said, x-rays are radiation, so i don't understand why you keep saying they come from a form of radiation. Anyway, we know of numerous sources of x-rays that are perfectly natural. Why should we dismiss them in favor of a one-off event that has never been observed by anyone? Do you have a link to the alleged "debunking?" Everything I can find posits that D'arcy may have been talking about a different shroud that was actually a fake, but they provide no evidence of this. To offer something as an explanation and claim you have scientific evidence for it, you absolutely have to have some scientific understanding of that explanation in the first place. As I alluded to earlier, at least one person has replicated the shroud in modern times, and there is the camera obscura process described by Da Vinci (though known even by Aristotle, as it turns out) that could produce something similar. So we're at the same place: you're offering a one-off event that has never been observed as an explanation when we know of repeatable processes that can produce this result. Sorry, what did I lie about? The two explanations I gave above? They're real. For someone who appears to be deliberately misrepresenting the amount of scientific evidence that supports his/her position, you're pretty quick to throw that "lie" claim at others. Repeating that some open minded folks have come around isn't going to change anything. You have offered nothing but neutral scientific evidence, unscientific papers, and circular reasoning. Insult atheists all you want, offer empty rhetoric about how our minds are already made up, but that isn't a substitute for a legitimate argument and actual evidence. The constant need to claim that you've "planted the seed" and your cheerleading for other posters who share your view comes off as desperation, by the way, rather than the words of someone who believes his/her own argument.
