"Skeptics," Science, Spirituality and Religion

Hypothesis
A hypothesis is a conjecture, based on knowledge obtained while formulating the question, that may explain the observed behavior of a part of our universe. The hypothesis might be very specific, e.g., Einstein's equivalence principle or Francis Crick's "DNA makes RNA makes protein",[31] or it might be broad, e.g., unknown species of life dwell in the unexplored depths of the oceans. A statistical hypothesis is a conjecture about some population. For example, the population might be people with a particular disease. The conjecture might be that a new drug will cure the disease in some of those people. Terms commonly associated with statistical hypotheses are null hypothesis and alternative hypothesis. A null hypothesis is the conjecture that the statistical hypothesis is false, e.g., that the new drug does nothing and that any cures are due to chance effects. Researchers normally want to show that the null hypothesis is false. The alternative hypothesis is the desired outcome, e.g., that the drug does better than chance. A final point: a scientific hypothesis must be falsifiable, meaning that one can identify a possible outcome of an experiment that conflicts with predictions deduced from the hypothesis; otherwise, it cannot be meaningfully tested.

From Wikopedia.

 

No hypothesis is ever 'provable' per se. And, like I already posted, the best hypotheses are testable but it is not a requirement. The idea that a 'religious' hypothesis is untestable is demonstrably untrue.

Observation: The bible says a worldwide flood wiped out all life on earth except for a guy named Noah and his family and 2 of all the animals.
Hypothesis: This is a factual account of history.
Testing: Scientific findings in the fields of geology, biology, physics, etc all fail to support this hypothesis.

Observation: I prayed to recover from my cancer and then I recovered from my cancer.
Hypothesis: My praying helped me to recover from cancer.
Testing: Scientists have studied the effects of prayer on patients and discovered that there is no net change in outcome from persons who pray vs not pray.

If it were true that "any hypothesis about religion is untestable and unprovable", then why would we bother to respond to any religious based claim with logic or reason? The answer is because it IS falsifiable (to some extent), even if that is only by using logic.

This sounds a lot like what I already posted. I am still not sure where we differ here.

 

I am not sure there is any truth in that since I have not seen anyone to date capable of posting formal logic to counter the formal logic I posted proving atheists lack philosophy and reason....at least as far as it is understood academically at any university.

Formal logic is not unsupported opinions.

formal logic

noun:

• logic based on argument involving deductively necessary relationships and including the use of syllogisms and mathematical symbols.
  
  
  
  
  

You can find all the necessary proofs you need in the atheist thread I created.

 

Thank you for the kind words (I think) but, I suspect that CourtJester and I are actually pretty close in our views. We are just having a friendly, mostly irrelevant, discussion about details. I have already weighed in on the 'belief' vs 'proponent' issue so won't repeat it here. More on "Thiest" vs "Athiest" below ...

As was said, 'Agnostic' is a statement of knowledge. If you were to ask me if I am a 'believer' in your god, I would have to say that I am 'agnostic' about it. That is to say that I have no idea who or what your god is or what evidence you have of it's existence. I have no knowledge of your god.

If you then lay out your case and define your god and provide the rational you see for your belief then I can either believe your claim or not. At that point I become either a 'theist' (with regard to that god) or an 'atheist' (with regard to that god).

If you have not provided any evidence for your belief that I accept AND I also reject belief in your god ... Then I am an agnostic-athiest (with regard to that god)

I put 'with regard to that god' parenthetically for a reason ... it is possible to be an atheist with regard to any theistic claim. I assume you also are an atheist with regard to many, many gods.

 

Thats my point, they simply make everything up as they go, and they wont bother to thank you for correcting their errors.

 

Theist claims any one of many deities, atheist claims no deities, no union or intersection exists in formal logic.

 

This is where I think the disconnect is occurring. An atheist doesn't really claim anything. It is merely a statement of belief on a particular proposed deity. For instance: If I were to say that "I believe that the literal god of the bible does not exist", I would be stating that I am an atheist in regard to THAT god. In your view this would not make me an atheist, because theoretically I could support the belief in some other god. This is absurd.

I totally get why this disconnect occurs. It tries to shift the burden of proof to the atheist by stating that they are the ones making a truth claim. This is simply not the case.

- - - Updated - - -

This is where I think the disconnect is occurring. An atheist doesn't really claim anything. It is merely a statement of belief on a particular proposed deity. For instance: If I were to say that "I believe that the literal god of the bible does not exist", I would be stating that I am an atheist in regard to THAT god. In your view this would not make me an atheist, because theoretically I could support the belief in some other god. This is absurd.

I totally get why this disconnect occurs. It tries to shift the burden of proof to the atheist by stating that they are the ones making a truth claim. This is simply not the case.

 

Very nice add on.

I have no issue with any person who is religious or not.

It's not my business and to each their own.

The ONLY problem I have is when such people attempt to EVANGELIZE their religious beliefs and cannot take NO for an answer.

I have had to resort to a few...well let's say....heavy handed actions....to get some religious individuals to stop showing up at my home early in the morning.

I don't even mind their initial attempt but after I say...No.....they should respect my wishes and not attempt to come back as in their own words they were...."Trying to save my soul."...and they said that to the Cops.

Thing is I can easily BLOW UP any of their arguments and beliefs with just a tiny bit of simple logic but does anyone see ME showing up at their homes early in the morning trying to destroy their belief system...NO!!!

So after I say NO.....that should be it!!!

AA

 

No We have read too many of your supposed formal logic proofs. And they show no knowledge except about a third grade understandinging of what is required. Done with your silly posturing. Come back after you get an education that doesn't exist solely in your own mind.

 

The Problem with the whole discussion is that there are so many possibilities
1) no Gods
2) all gods
3) some gods
4) maybe gods
5) maybe not gods
6) only one god

Taking any one position other than those using " maybe" requires proving that all the other positions are false. Potentially some may want to reduce the choices by claiming that all gods are one but of course that requires another set of proofs.

 

Actually if you just ask they will put you on a do not visit list and will not ever bother you again. Polite seems to work very well. They really are well meaning people and the situation can be handled with respect for all.

 

Yeah...well I wish that was the case with the idiots that kept coming to my door.

It got out of control and I had to call the cops.

I am sure not everyone is like that but that was my experience.

One of them actually put his foot inside my home so my door would not close.

Now you don't know me but I am NOT the kind of man anyone should EVER do that to.

AA

 

So I am curious as to which group is the problem? Mine was the Watchtower Society and when they finally did call headquarters the visits stopped totally.

 

Let's see....fist there was the local Jehovah's Witnesses.

Then there was this Baptist Right to Life Group.

The thee was a 3rd group I am not entirely certain who they were.

The JoHo Workin' crew was the biggest pain in the ass.

AA

 

Wow, you have my sympathies. Maybe a " Warning Land Mines" in the driveway.

 

I have a sign now.

It has a picture of a vicious dog and say's....No Trespassing Beware of Dog.

Then another sign right under it of a guy pointing a handgun right at you that say's....The Hell with the Dog! Beware of Owner!!

LOL!!

 

It is a shame you had those experiences and frustrations. I'm a theist and take the attitude that if asked I will share my beliefs, and thoughts. I'm not a Baptist but some far right wing people do not represent Christianity. We are taught if you don't want to hear what we have to day, fine, wipe the dust off and move on. Of course I would never go door to door and bother people.

I have dealt with the JWs and they can be a pain in the ass and are considered a cult in most Christian circles. Your privacy and desires should always be respected.

 

You know I respect another persons right to believe what they like and although I have my own beliefs I NEVER push them on anyone.

They most likely kept coming to my home because they probably figured because I have a large home and I live in a very well to do neighborhood which is actually out in the country....that there might be a big payoff as far as a donation.

I worked very hard to become wealthy and I give back every chance I get and I also not only work with several non-profit charities but I also created a few and every single dime that is donated goes to those in need and NO ONE takes a salary.

And I NEVER donate to any religious group nor do I donate to any charity where those who run it take a salary.

One of the charities I am involved with is the International Lions Club that helps the blind and those in need of corrective lenses who cannot afford them as 100% of all donations go to those in need.

AA

 

I doubt if they approached you because of your social standing, or material possessions, they solicit the poor, middle class, and wealthy. There are plenty of preachers that are lining their pockets with money donated by well meaning people, and that is a shame. True Christianity is based on one principle, love of God and others, if you have that you need not worry about anything else.

My family were mostly Masons, when one of my daughters was born she had major health problems and was in ICU for almost a month. That was in the 70s and we had no insurance at the time, the bill came to twenty six thousand dollars, I figured I would need to file bankruptcy. The Mason came in and paid the entire bill. There are many wonderful groups that work to help those in need, and that is what I believe God wants from all of us. Your generosity and caring of others shows your heart is in the right place.

 

That may be true with some groups, but not the JW's, they have been on my front door many times, and left totally frustrated with me but continued to return. Now I fully admit I challenged there beliefs and false prophesies so I possibly added fuel to their fire. My attitude is that the way I live my life represents who I am and what I believe so I don't need to beat someone over their head with a bible, I just need to love people and care about them.

 

Thank you I really appreciate that.

I might be the end all to end all toughest gasoline for blood eating my enemies heart for breakfast Above Alpha Male types......but I am Genetically Hardwired to help other people and protect them especially women.

I do all that I can to give back.

You know if these damn religions actually took the money they got in donations and used it to help other people then I might donate.

AA

 

The abuses of a few seems to hurt everyone. We don't need to build fancy churches, and pay preacher enormous salaries, we need to focus on helping those who can't help themselves. There is nothing that disturbs me more than to see the excesses that many of these people that call themselves pastors, preachers, elders, or reverend pamper themselves with.

I'm one that believes we can have a spiritual connection with God, that we can communicate with him, and yes I know the voices I hear in my head aren't real, but they do come up with some cool ideas once in a while. I also know that Christianity doesn't have all the answers, nor do I believe any religion does. However I do believe that Christianity basic beliefs have a very good foundation. Religion isn't the problem, it is what some people do with it that causes conflict.

 

Don't forget to mention what other people do without it... that is also a problem....

 

It's not uncommon to have a 'spiritual' experience. There are many methods to achieve these states. They all require dedicated practice, patience, discipline, and consistent effort which is the main reason why most will never experience these heightened states of consciousness. These systems are 100% proven, 100% tried and true, built around scientific models.. They are not secret or occult. They have been in existence for thousands of years and been used by millions throughout history.

My definition of 'spiritual experience' to those who are doubtful...
1. A feeling of connectedness to one's surroundings such as extra sensory perception. Being able to smell, hear, or see things far beyond the limit of one's bodily sense organs.
2. Detachment from ones 'self'. A state where everything you use to identify yourself (body, thoughts, emotions, etc..) is dramatically lessened. You think less of yourself as an individual being and more of an entity that is connected to your surroundings.
3. A melding of sensory perception. Emotions create sounds, sounds create visions, etc...
4. An incredible feeling of contentment and joy. The majority of modern life is spent chasing one need or desire after the other. In this state, you need nor desire nothing, which allows you to be completely absorbed by the ecstasy of the present moment.
5. Empathy. Since one's ego is diminished in this state, it becomes much easier to see and feel the world through another's point of view. Not just people, but animals, trees, flowers, etc..
6. A crystal clear sense of purpose. The clarity of a higher perspective. This allows us to see a purpose to our lives beyond fulfilling base needs and trivial desires. We begin to discover our true calling and how our life can be used to benefit all life on Earth.

That is a general description of how one would perceive a spiritual experience. As you progress along this path things can get pretty astounding. I won't expand on the details of advanced spiritual states as most will laugh it off as crazy, but it really isn't crazy at all. This is all stuff that humans originally did as naturally as eating, sleeping, and dreaming. We've just become so absorbed with competition and material excesses that we've become numb to our true origins.

 

Many people have found a relationship with God through their faith in him, but religion doesn't change a persons character or moral compass. Remember the BK killer, he was a deacon in his church. The transformation of a person may be guided by a religious belief, and a desire to live by the beliefs taught, but it is the individual that first makes the decision to correct character flaws. Once the decision is made to live by God's guidance the Holy Spirit will then begin to work in the individuals life. Unless someone has experienced the power of the Holy Spirit working in their life, I believe it is very difficult, if not impossible for them to grasp spiritual truths.

That is why the bible says Christianity is foolishness to the unbeliever.