Study of 1038 pedophiles shows no link with adult homosexuality

thank you

and to think I typed that and only had 2 cups of coffee today vs my usual 4-5

it's really a simple math equation

3.4% claim to be LGBT. Let's not even count those who are just gay but let's use the whole number including bi's and transvestites (or whatever the T is for)

that would mean for 1038 people you should have a total of maybe 35 who are LGBT.

In this study of pedophiles, they get 8% which is 80 people


now even if 8% of the USA population were gay (not LGBT but gay), and we know it's not that high of a number, then you would have 100% pedo to gay in this study

 

I'm curious where you get that 2% from. I'm only familiar with the CDC which also said 2%, but their definition of "gay" was finely tuned for the purposes of the CDC - it only included men who were actively sexual with other men (and by "Active", i mean had sex with another man in the last 5 years). This would seem to exclude a fair number who might be considered "gay". Naturally the CDC is not concerned about controlling the spread of STD's in groups that are not actively having MSM sex, so their methodology is not particularly surprising, nor is it "incorrect"... it's perfectly suited for it's purpose.

In any event, there have been other studies on the topic of pedophilia among homosexuals as well if this one doesn't suite your fancy.


When colorado was considering some anti-gay legislation on the grounds that homosexuals were a danger to children, some doctors at a facility that helps abused children decided to review all the cases of abuse in the last year to see which were perpetrated by homosexuals:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/94/1/41

Another study was done, measuring the penis volume of gay and hetero men after being shown explicit images of people of various age groups and gender.


http://www.jstor.org/pss/3813052

All that being said, I would not be horribly surprised if homosexuals were overrepresented among pedophiles to some degree. Facing social stigma, young homosexuals fit the profile of a likely target for pedophiles (depressed, vulnerable, looking for approval - pedophiles like targets that they can win over). And then of course, being molested predisposes one to becoming a pedophile themself. The CDC recognizes damage that stigma causes against gays for their mental and physical health - I would not be horribly shocked it this caused any sway in preponderancy to be a pedophile.

http://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/stigma-and-discrimination.htm

But then, let's get down to the real question. The question of the day: How likely is a given homosexual to molest your child. This is the reason this issue has been pushed forward. The answer is not as simple as "Okay, so this group is over-represented in pedophiles? Let's stigmatize them and label them pedophiles!". If it were that simple, we might just stigmatize all men, and to some degree we do... Men are often looked at as more likely perpetrators of sexual and violent crimes.

But it's not a defining characteristic of how laws and society treat men, as a class. Men are given the benefit of the doubt, and recognized for their other attributes before they are strictly judged as a man.

Which brings me to my point: What other attributes might we consider for identifying pedophiles, and what does this mean for the strigma we place on homosexuals.

http://www.childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

Here's some highlights describing the profile of a pedophile:

Also interesting was the lack of influence of religion... The group child molesters was equally as likely to call themselves religious.


So what all might we learn for this? Well for one, there's no need to be afraid of the average homosexual. Odds are, if you don't know the person, that person's not going to molest your child. Your family and friends are far more likely to molest a child than the average stranger.

Pedophilia starts early in life. Pedophiles are known to start molesting at a young age. Odds are your average "normal" person is not going to turn around and molest your child. A homosexual with normal, adult attractions is not going to suddenly turn around and become a pedophile.

The stigma against homosexuals will live on regardless, I'm sure. But I hope that one day the stigma we face is on line with what all men face - present, but not a defining factor meant to bring shame, stigma and legislation against us all as a group.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "100% pedo to gay".

 

So you're ignoring the distinction that you earlier stated was an important one, then?

Once more: Gay men are oriented on other men. Pedophiles are oriented on children, though they may show a preference for victims of one sex over another, or may have a preference for one sex over another in adult relationships that do not express their primary orientation - toward children.

Homosexual pedophiles are members of the set of people who partner with their own sex. They may or may not be members of the set of people who partner with adults. They may or may not be members of the subset of people who partner with adults of the same sex.

Gay men are members of the set of people who partner with their own sex. They do so within the confines of the set of people who partner with adults. This is the commonality with some homosexual pedophiles, but that commonality doesn't mean the drive behind partnering with males or adults is the same for both.

Homosexual pedophiles are members of the set of people who molest children. They are members of the set of people who prefer to molest children of the same sex.

Now the important part:

Gay men are not members of the set of people who molest children.

Gay men are not members of the set of people who prefer to molest children of the same sex.

Thus, your error in stating that "There may even be more gay men in the group of pedophiles". No, there cannot be. Gay men are not members of the set of pedophiles. Now, I suppose you could try to make the case that there exist men who are more or less equally oriented on both adults of the same sex and children of the same sex, but I'm skeptical of that, and even more skeptical of the idea that the portion of their orientation aimed at adults is driven by the same factors as for gay men.

No doubt a certain someone will claim I'm being hysterical again, whereas I'm just saying that blunders which clumsily confuse being gay with pedophilia don't help your arguments.

 

I see no reason why pedophile has to be seen as mutually exclusive with heterosexual or homosexual.

If you wish to SPECIFICALLY define "gay" or "homosexual" as men who strictly have sex with men of their own age group, then that's fine. It's just as good as any other of the multitude of definitions people and researchers push forward. There never has been and probably never will be a single definition for what "gay" or "homosexual" or "msm" is. Your definition does highlight the fact that odds are slim that a "gay" man who has not expressed interest in children before will suddenly cross over into the realm of pedophilia and molest a child, so I approve of it for that reason. But there is no single authority that says "gay" and "homosexual" and "heterosexual" MUST only include those who have an orientation towards ONLY towards people of their age group. If there is, then I'll submit to the point.

In any event, this is just an argument about semantics more than anything, not about facts.

 

The semantics are important to understanding the facts. I guess if you want to be lumped in with the pedophiles, that's your call. If you want me to be this precise, the I guess I'll start referring to myself as a man who is attracted almost exclusively to other adult males, with a preference for redheads and beards, instead of using 'gay'. (as for the 'almost', don't misconstrue that as applying to anything other than adults who aren't male; not really keen on straight women but there are some fine lesbians out there - not that the feeling is mutual, which I respect).

Nah, too much of a mouthful. I'll still use gay, and if someone wants to try to associate that with pedophilia, they're welome to their bigotry until such time as they try to use it as an excuse to impose limits on my life.

 

I agree, the lack of understanding of the distinction is not helped by the semantics. Perhaps I should join the effort to push it forward, but the problem with that is it's just an argument about semantics... I can't "prove" it's the correct definition since there is no such thing. But I support your push and the reasoning behind it.

 

from one of your publications based upon a 2011 study

http://gaylife.about.com/od/comingout/a/population.htm


I'm being generous, they put the number at 1.7% who have gay sex. If that is the case, as reported by their study (again, your publication not an anti-gay one) then only a maximum of 17 people (100 %) should have been gay and pedos in the report vs the 8% or 80 which was reported


this study which is being used to say there is no tie to being gay and a pedo is bogus because the numbers don't add up. If you want to stand by the study, and using the % of gay population then you have 100% gay to pedo ratio in this study.........................that's just nuts and IMPOSSIBLE

 

Not even close. You really are clueless. Kinseys' # are meaningless, with the abundance of evidence that has come to light since the 50s.

Totally clueless. PRECISELY the opposite. In order for YOUR theory to work, while only 4% actually have sex with men, 36% express the attraction. Whereas in the real world of societal norms, men who do have sex with men, might hide that fact by failing to reveal their attraction.

You dont have a clue.

 

I don't see where they said, in your link, "1.7% have gay sex". They said it was an identity, which does not imply having gay sex. Bisexuals may be married and monogamous. Virgins obviously are not having sex yet (if ever). As with those who don't act on their sexuality for religious reasons. There's a variety of reasons one may identify as having some degree of homosexuality without actively having gay sex.

Your source also linked us to this page:
http://gaylife.about.com/b/2011/04/17/how-many-people-are-really-gay.htm

So it's 8.2% that participate in same sex activity, and 11% that held same sex attraction.

There is a problem that the studies use two different mothods... one asks to rate their homosexuality to heterosexuality on a scale of 0-6 and the other asks "do you identify as gay, bi or hetero". Simply adding and manipulating results from one study and trying to compare it to another doesn't address the problem that the question was different. Asking someone to label themselves is rather different from asking them to rate their sexuality.

 

Societal norms may not apply in the context of an anonymous survey. But the act of actually having sex certainly would.

Still you are likely to see some degree of people failing to reveal their attraction due to social norms. This would be ESPECIALLY true for the general public. But then you have a survey like the one that asked pedophiles the same question.... they've already broken ranks with one of the most serious social norms in existence. One might assume they'd be far more willing to explore and admit to their relative degree homosexual attractions than the general population... what do they have to lose?

 

I'm still not sure what you mean by "100% gay to pedo ratio in this study".

Are you just saying "for every 1 pedophile there is also 1 gay person"?

 

And yet,36% of men who molested boys participate in same sex activity.

 

Its not anonymous with the interviewer sitting in front of you asking the questions.

 

nope

your publi cation is quite clear; 1.7% claim to have gay sex (the only diference between heteros and gays is how they have sex)

so, let's even use the number you want to use where you say 8% of the entire population engages in gay sex. That number is of course a fantasy in your mind and it is under 3% but never mind that for this exercise

of the 1038 pedophiles, 8% claimed to engage in gay sex.

If we use YOUR NUMBER of 8% of the populaton has gay sex, then if you take a cross section of America and poll them, then 8 of every 100 should engage in gay sex.

Now let's poll 1038 pedophile and ask how many have gay sex, in this study, that answer was 8%.

Now wait a minute, isn't that the same % of all people who engage in gay sex according to you? If so, then that means that all gay people are pedophiles which is utter nonsense especially when according to one of your pubs the real number is 1.7% of the entire population has gay sex, so this study skews very high of gay pedophiles

this study is bogus

 

Two different statistics that you still don't understand. I'm done explaining it to you.

 

That may be the only difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals as you define it, but that doesn't mean this is how it was defined and understood to those giving and taking the various surveys. And even if it is that simple, it's not that simple... what does it mean "how they have sex"? Does it mean if they had gays sex in the last year? Last 5 years? If they ever have? If they ever would? Does the survey specify, and are the time constraints the same from survey to survey? When people answer the question, are they aware of the time constraints? I, for example, would have answered a survey asking if I was gay as "yes" when I was age 14-18ish. But I was still a virgin at that point. Some surveys only count if you had sex with another man within the last 5 years. You can define homosexuality however you want, but that doesn't mean that's how all the surveys on homosexuality interpreted it.

That 8% came from the exact same source as the 1.7%.

This is the page that you linked us to with the 1.7%
http://gaylife.about.com/od/comingout/a/population.htm

Look at the text I bolded above... that's actually a hyperlink on the source tha takes us to where they further describe the 1.7%. Which is this page:

http://gaylife.about.com/b/2011/04/17/how-many-people-are-really-gay.htm

So they clearly showed here that 1.7 is those who identify as gay and 8.2 is those who participate in same sex sexual activity.

Not exactly true. The study on pedophiles asked the person to rate their sexuality. You may believe that this means the participant should ONLY have said "homosexual" if they were actively having gay sex, but the survey did not necessarily specify this to the participant - they may have had a different idea on what the question was asking - i.e. identify vs activity. The person taking the survey is left to their own devices to determine what it means to be "mostly heterosexual" or "equally heterosexual and homosexual" or any of the other options.

Asking someone "do you have sex with men?" is quite a different question, which may also beg two other questions: "When was the last time you had sex with a man?" and "would you do it again?"

I don't agree that your math says what you think it says. If 8% of the population is gay, and 8% of pedophiles are also gay, that doesn't make 100% of pedophiles gay..... that makes 8% gay, which is exactly what we would expect in a nul hypothesis.

 

That little and bizarre disclaimer in the CDC report is frankly stupid. Look at the numbers in both reports, the conclusion is obvious.

I don't need a middle man to interpret such simple numbers for me. Again, the conclusion is easily seen from the numbers in both reports - homosexuals are much more prone to be pedophiles.

 

Sometimes the devil is in the detail, and that "bizarre" disclaimer indeed highlighted an important difference between MSM and a self-rating of homosexuality. These numbers are really not that simple.

There's actually even more detail about the number than what was shown just in that disclaimer. If you follow the bibliography of that report, you eventually find your way to this press release that further describes the number:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/Newsroom/msmpressrelease.html

So the criteria for that 4% was that they had to have sex with another man in the last 5 years. Quite different from a criteria that asks a survey to freely rate their sexual identity on a scale of 1-6 as homosexual or heterosexual, without regard to ever when or if they had sex.

 

If that's the mistaken conclusion you draw, then clearly you do need someone to explain it to you - not that you'd objectively listen if they did.

 

I understand just fine. What you dont understand is that it is your study on pedophillia and the Kinsey study that it is comparing to that are different statistics. The pedophile study asked what they identified as in their adult life while Kinsey assigned their identity.

 

Nooooo, Kinsey didnt ask them to assign themselves an identity on a scale. HE assigned them an identity.

 

you are flipping.....what the study shows even using your false number of 8% is that 100% of gays are pedophiles, that is the result of the study. I find that to be outrageous based upon the gay people I know and they are not pedophiles. Clearly this study is bogus.

Now, to your stat. 1.7% claim to engage in gay sex. You also wish to include bisexuals and cross dressers but those claiming to be gay is 1.7%.

I look at the gay people I know and we enjoy a good football game, like to fish, enjoy cars and other mutual interests, eat food in the same manner etc. My wife has a lesbian friend who likes to shop as much as she, they both walk using both legs etc


the only place we differ is when I have sex, i have it with women

Are you trying to assert that gay people do other things differently than heterosexuals like drive cars, or vomit, or even cry?

 

I suggest that you not take up a career as a statistician if that's your interpretation of these numbers.

If 8% of a cross-section of the general population were gay, and if 8% of a cross-section of pedophiles were gay, then what that would tell us is that there isn't a disproportionate number of "gay pedophiles" since the ratio of gays to non-gays in both populations would be the same. 8% is 8%, not 100%.

Nevermind that gay and pedophile are mutually exclusive, since one is an orientation directed toward adults/age peers, and the other an orientation directed toward children. It's bogus to assume that the drivers are the same for both.

 

you are starting to get it


let's use the INCORRECT number of 8%

if you gather up 1038 people on the street then chances are very good that you will find that 8% (using your incorrect figure) or about 80 people would be gay. What this study shows is that 100% of gays are pedophiles which is absolute hogwash.