The Classic Strawman: But 47% Don't Pay Taxes!

I'm a capitalist. Hell, I'm a business-owner and a REAL job creator in that, everyone I hire is actually American.
So I watch FOX and then I see the parroting on this and other boards about how "OMG! How can they ask the Rich to pay more in income tax?!?! 47% of Americans don't even pay taxes!"
This is a pretty good strawman. It's deceitful as hell, combines truth with lies and uses some great misdirection to get attention of the real crux of the issue.
1. Those 47% do pay taxes. They pay them every time they buy things etc... We're just at a point in our history where so many people are broke, they don't pay income taxes.
2. The Effective Rate thing. They use the 47% don't pay taxes as if it applies to the Middle Class. it doesn't. Ask yourself this question: Do youpay taxes? About what percent do you pay? If it's more than 18%, you're paying more than millionaires or most business-owners. If it's more than 0%, you're paying more than many international companies that are based in the USA. Do people like me, who employ 100% American workers, get special tax loopholes from the government? Do we get special consideration, investment, tax credits, subsidies or breaks? Nope. Who does? Companies that ship jobs overseas. Do those companies ship jobs to say, India for tax reasons? The rate in India is 33% and the average effective rate is higher than the USA. So no, that's a bill of goods that is being bought by a lot of people lately.
3. "But everyone has the same laws so the rich don't get anything that others can't have! They're just smarter!" This is completel bs. Could you have your boss "hold" 90% of your pay for a few years, so you won't have to pay taxes on it? Of course not. Our tax code is specifically designed to be unfair. Income deferments, Stock options, insurance etc... are all things that "anyone" can use but practically speaking, someone making $50K a year can't live on $5K a year. But someone making $20 MILLION a year can probably scratch by on $170,000 a month.

So yes. Our tax system is unfair. It offers loopholes to "everyone" - that only the rich can afford to use. This is the only country I've ever lived in, where people will actually say "Oh those poor rich people, THEY are the ones needing protecting!" .
Now they're talking about eliminating the deduction for mortgage interest. Does anyone NOT see the long-term consequence of such follishness? Some day historians will look at this period at our history and say "That's when the Middle Class that used to exist in America, voted themselves out of existence."

 

I see the long term ingenuity of it.

We have to prevent people from buying homes they cannot afford on a massive scale ever again.

The best way to do that is to prevent them from getting tax breaks that trick them into thinking they can afford more house than they actually can.

We have to stop subsidizing home ownership as a human right. Just like we have to stop treating alot of the amenities our society allows us as human rights.

You have a right to live and a right to die. How you choose to do those two things are up to you and you alone. Stop relying on Government to maintain your middle class lifestyle. It is up to you and you alone!

A middle class lifestyle is not a human right granted by Government but privilege earned for good performance in the economy.

Staying for 20 years at the same manufacturing job and allowing your skills and education to stagnate is not good performance.

People with high school educations or less, unless in some way exceptional, are simply to uneducated to maintain anything but a low paying service sector job.

 

I don't think you understand what a strawman argument is. That aside, it's actually 51% who pay no income taxes. Income taxes are relevant as payroll taxes only enroll the individual in the entitlement program and sales and other forms of taxation are state and not federal.

Also, the rich do pay taxes. It's nonsense to state that they pay none. 'Cause it ain't the poor funding our federal government.

Additionally, do you know why there is an incentive for offshoring jobs? It's because we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. When you are talking about a 'tax break' for offshoring, you are talking about production moving overseas to better tax climates. Companies move jobs overseas to pay another country's corporate tax and the dems call that a tax break for offshoring jobs. We have a toxic climate for doing business here. We need some real capitalists in office, not faux capitalists like yourself.

But yes, offshoring is a problem caused in part by our tax code. Our corporate tax is far too high. Stop driving our businesses away you stinkin socialists.

If you want to end the tax breaks for going overseas that means making our tax code competitive with the rest of the world. Instead we are slowly commiting economic suicide with an insane tax code that punishes business and incentivizes political corruption.

 

It cost more to buy a home than to rent one. So if there is no tax incentive for buying, what do you think will happen to the housing market? It will crach 100x more than ever. Then corporations will buy the homes and rent them out. And guess what? THEY get a tax write off on depreciation, interest, upkeep and more. America will literally be owned by corporations. Those selling you the idea you parroted here, are looking to gain big-time on their long-range vision and your shortsightedness. You don't think America has learned its lesson about extending home loans to those who can't afford it? Or being careful when they buy homes? Really? Change the channel once in a while.
As far as screwing the middle class and eliminating any reward for loyalty to a company, well again, change the channel once in a while. Sure it's not a right! I mean really, we should be just like China or India, right? Rich and poor and nothing in between? That's not what I want for this country because I love living here more than any country I've ever lived in. But you prove the last sentence of my post.

 

What I don't understand is why anyone who is against the Govt would want those 51% who don't pay income taxes to have to give their money to the Govt. I much rather have those 51% give me their money so I have to pay taxes, rather than them giving it to the Govt so the Govt gives it right back to them.

 

Of course, people who don't pay for government are going to decide they are perfectly fine with you paying for a whole lot more of it. That is, until you decide to pack your bags and leave. Then they will complain about how you are getting a tax break for fleeing the country.

 

A strawman argument is simply a diversionary tactic to keep people from addressing the real issue.
I never said the rich don't pay taxes but of course, since I don't parrot FOX or Americanthinker, that's what your brain told you I said. Although guess what? A lot of rich people in fact, pay zero American Income taxes, while being citizens and living here full time.
The tax rate in India is 33%. With loopholes etc... it comes out to almost exactly even to the USA's average effective rate of 18%. So then why do American companies move jobs there? It's not the tax rate. Open your mind to facts. There are no safety regs in India to speak of. Child labor is common. There are virtually no environmental laws. The average person lives on three dollars a day. It is a poverty state - like China. And it is what the ConservaRepubs are trying their best to turn America into. Brilliant.
Unless of course, you think ZERO is too high of a tax rate? How many Fortune 500 companies paid ZERO taxes again? And how many of them are shipping jobs overseas? So much for it being about taxes....

 

What? This is nonsensical. The money I make comes from people who spend their money. I rather have all those poor people spending their money on us rather than on the Govt. Rich people aren't rich because they have tax shelters, they are rich because all those poor people give them their money.

And to clarify I pay plenty of income taxes since I am a single male with no dependents who makes a lot of money. But I understand economics and I understand I make more money when poor, non-financially sound people have money to give me.

And who cares if people pack their bags and leave. That leaves more room open for competition. And if you are saying that people like Mitt Romney have Cayman Island accounts because they pay too much taxes, than you are just a brainwashed individual.

 

A lot of rich people make zero as income so income tax doesn't apply to them. What does that have to do with how much they pay in taxes?

I'm not going to waste time picking apart your blather here. You brought up tax breaks for moving overseas. The tax 'break' for moving overseas is merely paying another corporate tax if your production is overseas. Since we do have the highest corporate tax rate in the world that's always a break. And yes, in a lot of ways our tax code is not competitive.

 

You are ridiculous. No one moves operations overseas because of tax breaks. They move it overseas because like the other individual said, you pay slave labor wages with no environmental regulations. If you lowered income taxes here, that would not stop people from shipping jobs overseas.

 

You said they move jobs overseas because of our tax code here and now? Nice Cut & Run. Facts are a bummer that way, aren't the?
There are actualy tax breaks fro closing down and shipping overseas. They were designed with moving from one state to another in mind but oops.
So if the effective tax rate is the same in India as it is here, they're moving jobs there WHY exactly? Oh yeah. You don't addrsss facts and questions directly. Forgot - ConservaRepubLitarian.

 

In the age of Obama, how do people not know what a strawman argument is? The man uses them constantly.

"Now my opponents on the right like to say... blah blah blahbetty strawman"

 

Yet another marvelous dodge of facts and questions! So that thing about companies that pay zero taxes shipping jobs overseas? Oh yeah that's right. ConservaRepubLitarian.

Okay well Nice Dodge!

 

I never said taxes were the primary reason, but corporate taxes play a role in determining ultimate profitability.

A law like Obamacare is far more detrimental than our corporate tax.

 

The corporate tax rate is a number. The effective corporate tax rate that they ACTUALLY pay in America is abysmal. You are watching way too much Fox News.

What's funny is you support those that ship jobs overseas and instead of blaming those that take advantage of child and slave laborers you blame the Govt for making costs too high in America.

Lol!!! Conservatives are a joke.

 

I'm in favor of sweat shops actually. Cheap labor leads to rapid industrialization in a third world country until the lewisian turning point is reached (google lewisian turning point). Then there is a rapid rise of the standard of living in the country. To you those jobs are terrible and comparible to slavery. To them, those jobs provide them with much more than the primitive agriculture jobs they were working before. And in a generation that rapid development will provide their children and grandchildren with a life they can only dream of.

In 20 years the BRIC nations will join the developed world and we will all benefit. Our standard of living is ultimately tied to our productivity and the productivity of the American worker is high enough to afford a great lifestyle. And at the moment, we are benefiting from cheap outsourced labor more than hurting from it.

In fact, if anything right now we are all living beyond our means. We should be thankful for it.

 

The average tax rate (actually PAID) of companies that ship jobs overseas is 18.5%. The average tax rate of of a guy making say, $70K as an employee is 150% of those companies. This makes sense to whom?

 

Even liberal economists recommend that an effective corporate tax rate of zero is the best medicine. The idea is to try to get US companies to move back to America voluntarily, not through the use of Government force. IOW the Government wants to use a carrot, not a stick to help with outsourcing issues.

You personally want to see Government use a stick, but the politicians on either side of the aisle are not interested in that approach.

 

Spoken like a true right wing parrot, don't you ever think for yourself?

 

Tax rates do not change things as much as people make them out to be. The greatest cost of business is labor not taxes. No company will move back to America if they can pay $.25 an hour for labor. This whole fear mongering of taxes is simply the rich people trying to scare you guys.

People go after profit. You will try to make $100 regardless of if you have to pay 15% taxes or 30% taxes.

What they should do is tax corporations and business who ship jobs overseas the amount it would cost to employ American's here.

 

that is protectionism and is regarded negatively in all economic circles. The costs of those taxes will simply be passed on to the consumer making import goods as expensive as American made ones.

You are just advocating back door protectionism. Stop it.

Access to cheap foreign goods is a net plus for our economy. Our quality of life is ENHANCED by cheap foreign goods.

American(Union) made goods suck and cost to much.

Foriegn goods suck too, but cost much much less.

 

Well why don't you help me and prove me wrong? Instead of offering your typical uneducated opinion.

 

This is just you being brainwashed. You are advocating cheap goods at the expense of income. That never works, and is why the Government basically has to supplement this income. And businesses do not have the control you think. If they raise prices, we as consumers can simply not give them our money.

This also opens up the door for competition from local businesses and others that are willing to sell for cheaper prices at lower margins.

This is why China and Japan have almost two trillion of our dollars. All we are doing is racking up massive deficits so people have the money to give to all the sweatshop laborers overseas.

 

All you do is spout BS, all day every day.



I'm sure real income has taken a dip due to the last three years of failed obamanomics, but our standard of living has been increasing and we are better off today than during the golden days of American factory workers.

 

You NAILED IT!

Don't fall for the BS, ever. We know that WEALTH for 1% of the population has increased to RECORD LEVELS (sky-rocketed) over the last 25 (or so) years. There are a lot of tricks that those who want to 'protect' the status quo will employ, to convince people to vote AGAINST their own interests to KEEP IT THAT WAY. They don't care about the middle class, and they show it... by rarely if ever addressing the middle class (the WORKERS).

Addressing the problems of the middle class (even the poor) is NOT "class warfare" (as many Conservatives prefer to DISMISS those problems)... it is a matter of leveling the playing field so that those who WORK (literally DO something with their hands/body) for a living have the same economic advantages as those who 'invest' money.

Do NOT be fooled folks... those who are very wealthy, typically work no harder, or spend their live no more readily than those who WORK for a living.

Millionaires and billionaires pay proportionately less in taxes than middle class; that is, a larger CHUNK of the total money that goes into your pocket is taken in taxes, than a wealthy person ever feels.

The burden that a middle class person bears in taxes, is felt in their literal ability to maintain the things they need to survive or live with reasonable dignity. The burden that a wealthy person endures via taxes, is barely felt in comparison to that. The wealthy aren't going to miss a meal, be out in the cold, or lose access to healthcare as a result of taxes they must pay. They DO NOT BEAR anywhere near the same (actual) burden as a result of paying their taxes.

Instead of a more equitable tax schedule, corporate lobbyists have (over the years) worked to convince politicians to implement policies which serve the wealthy more than they consider the REAL burden of those in the middle class. And those laws aren't just about taxes... they extend to Wall Street and other business practices which affect the average American (who obviously cannot afford a team of LAWYERS to help them shelter their money).

To me, the BOTTOM LINE is revealed by asking the question:

How is it that the top 1% of the American population has seen RECORD increases in income, while the middle class in comparison has seen LESS or a flattened amount of money coming in; not only that, but also massive loss of JOBS as well?