The left's view: Israel is not much dmaged by continual rocket fire from Hamas

According to Mara Schiavocampo on MSNBC, Hamas' continual barrage of rockets into Israel is really no big deal, apart from any "psychological trauma" it might impart.

As she phrased it, in an interview with Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren:

With this, we have the left's core position: A sovereign nation should not be overly concerned about rockets raining down upon its citizenry, just so long as not too many of those citizens are actually killed.

Some houses blown apart, and innumerable citizens living in a constant state of terror--well, no biggee...

 

This is when I actually am dumbfounded.

Many people claim that the media in this country is controlled by "Jews and Israel". But if that is the case, then why the lopsided reporting. Innocent Palestinians trying to defend their homes, and the Jews hardly even being scratched?

Myself, I find the purposefull aiming of weapons into purely civilian areas as a war crime, pure and simple. There is absolutely no military objective in this at all, they are simply trying to kill people.

But I am not surprised, the media has been remarkably one-sided over the events in Israel for years. I am sure that most people are not even aware that from 1 January to 13 November (before this latest round of attacks started), there had been almost 800 rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip into Israel. And in 2011, there were 680 shelling of Israeli territory from Gaza. But where was the reporting of this?

The only reason that they are not killing many is simply because the weapons are crude, poorly made with absolutely no navigation capabilities. Like the V1, V2 and Saddam's SCUDs, they simply try to compute the distance, aim the rocket towards something and fire. Pretty much terror weapons, with no real military use.

http://www.idf.il/1283-14436-en/Dover.aspx

Any thoughts I may have had for Palestine getting their "homeland" has vanished over the last decades of attacks, kidnappings and terror attacks. And the sad irony is that the more things like this they do, the more respect I have for them. Almost makes one wish for the days of when Fatah was the leader of the movement. At least they generally kept their attacks aimed at military and political targets, and could be negotiated with. Hamas simply wants to kill anybody it can, and can't be negotiated with.

 

I thoroughly agree with most of this post. My only caveat would be this: I am glad that Hamas is now in control of the Gaza Strip, since it is so radical that Israel will have every moral right to utterly destroy it--not to merely try to appease it.

 

Yes they have been on Israels side spewing their version of events especially in America where it gets wall to wall coverage and that is why Americans have not got a clue what is actually happening there.

 

Uhh, I have no idea what news you are watching then.

MSNBC, where we see destroyed apartments in Israel, and dead children in Palestine.
http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/20/15308976-violence-continues-in-israel-and-gaza-amid-hopes-of-cease-fire?lite#__utma=238145375.1836605381.1352830538.1353465930.1353465957.3&__utmb=238145375.2.10.1353465957&__utmc=238145375&__utmx=-&__utmz=238145375.1352830538.1.1.utmcsr=google.com|utmccn=(referral)|utmcmd=referral|utmcct=/imgres&__utmv=238145375.|8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7C=1^12=Landing%20Content=Mixed=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=video.msnbc.msn.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Mixed=1&__utmk=257526344

I an article on the main page of CNN titled "Israeli Official: We don't want a 'time out'".

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/20/world/meast/gaza-israel-strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Another deadline article, this time at CBS: "Clinton steps in as truce deal put on hold. Cease-fire announcement could come Wed. as pressure mounts to end bloodshed; Death toll over 135, mostly Palestinians"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57552845/clinton-steps-in-as-israel-gaza-truce-deal-put-on-hold/

[qupte]Computerized passport control points, shiny marble floors and framed photos of beaches greet arrivals at Gaza's Rafah terminal along the Egyptian frontier.

The $1.4 million terminal reflects a sign of Palestinian hopes that the fighting of the past week between militants in Gaza and Israel will end with a deal leading to an easier flow of people and goods into Egypt.

That would transform the lives of the 1.7 million people in the impoverished territory and give a major victory to Hamas, the militant Islamic group that governs Gaza.
[/quote]
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/gaza-egypt-border-critical-point-conflict-17772224

Funny, I just spent the last 45 minutes reading multiple news articles on various sites, and I am seeing nothing like what you are claiming. Where on earth are you getting your news?

 

It is a fact that the American media are pro Israel, everyone and their dog knows this fact except you it seems.

As shown by our Media Report Cards, the American press tends to provide extremely distorted coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict. There are a number of factors that contribute to this troubling pattern of omission and misrepresentation. One of them is bias. In this section, we will provide information about how bias influences media coverage of this topic, and where this bias originates.

NPR Watch: Linda Gradstein Has Done It Again on Gaza
Felice Pace, CounterPunch - NPR’s reporter Linda Gradstein has done it again. She has managed to take a "must report" story on Israeli-Palestinian relations - the new report by B’Tselem on the non-combatants, including children, killed by the Israeli military during the Israeli attack on Gaza - and report it in a manner which minimizes the story's potential to create opposition to Israeli treatment of Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza.

Recent exposés revealing that Ethan Bronner, the New York Times Israel-Palestine bureau chief, has a son in the Israeli military have caused a storm of controversy that continues to swirl and generate further revelations.

Many people find such a sign of family partisanship in an editor covering a foreign conflict troubling – especially given the Times’ record of Israel-centric journalism.

On January 27th media headlines trumpeted that Palestinians had broken the latest cease-fire: a bomb had killed one Israeli soldier and injured two or three.

Virtually every media outlet reported this action as a major breach in the ceasefire that had begun on January 18th: Associated Press, CNN, Fox News, CBS, the New York Times, The Washington Post, the LA Times, the McClatchy Newspapers, etc, all pinned the resumption of violence on Palestinians.

There's just one problem. Israeli forces had already violated the ceasefire at least seven times:

Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer in Khuza'a east of Khan Yunis on Jan 18
Israeli forces killed a Palestinian farmer east of Jabalia on Jan. 19
Israeli naval gunboats shelled the Gaza coastline, causing damage to civilian structures
Israeli troops shot and injured a child east of Gaza City on Jan 22
Israeli gunboat fire injured 4-7 Palestinian fishermen on Jan 22
Israeli shelling set a Palestinian house on fire on Jan 22
Israeli tanks fired on the border town of Al Faraheen, causing damage to homes and farms on Jan 24


I attended an extremely disturbing event Thursday night. It was hosted by WETA, the PBS station in Washington DC, and was part of the national launch of an 11-part PBS series, "America at a Crossroads," to begin airing April 15. It featured clips from the series followed by a panel discussion with some of those involved in the films, moderated by Robert MacNeil. The panel discussion represented a "wide" spectrum of opinions: all the way from, at one end, suggesting that all Muslims are terrorists to, at the other end, suggesting that some Muslims are not terrorists.

In other words, from what we were shown on Friday, it appears that much of the series contains subtle, intellectually "acceptable" Muslim-bashing.

To review Jimmy Carter's book, Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, the Washington Post chose a Jewish Israeli citizen who willingly moved from his American birthplace to volunteer to become a soldier in Israel, working as a prison guard at one of Israel's worst prisons, where International and Israeli human rights organizations have documented a lack of process, inhumane conditions and torture for the hundreds of Palestinians (many women and children) who are held there indefinitely and without charge.

A November 7, 2006 New York Times news article about a Human Rights Watch report on domestic violence against Palestinian women1 brings welcome attention to human rights issues. Unfortunately, the same article, viewed in the context of The New York Times' reporting on Israel/Palestine over the last six years, provides a powerful example of typical US mainstream media bias against Palestinians.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/bias.html

 

This one-sidedness makes me glad to be an international relations major. I knew from IDF reports about rocket fire into Israel for the past month or so. Therefore, it does not surprise me when I hear that Israel finally decided to forcefully react. At the same time, there was a great NY Times op-ed a few days ago by an Israeli negotiator. He had been working on a cease-fire agreement between Hamas and Israel prior to Operation Pillar of Defense. He was angry at Netanyahu and Barak for going ahead with a military operation, knowing that he and Mr. Jabari, the former Hamas head of military affairs, were on the cusp of striking a deal. In other words, what can be said about the coverage of the state of affairs in the Middle East is that it is much more complex than the mainstream media portrays it to be.

 

Deadly Distortion
Associated Press Coverage of
Israeli and Palestinian Deaths

This study of the Associated Press Newswire (AP) covers 2004, a year for which we have completed studies of The New York Times, and the major network television channels: ABC, NBC, and CBS.

We chose to study AP because it is one of the major sources of world news for Americans. AP, according to its website, is the world’s oldest and largest news organization. Many newspapers depend on it for their international news.

We found a significant correlation between the likelihood of a death receiving coverage and the nationality of the person killed.

In 2004, there were 141 reports in AP headlines or first paragraphs of Israeli deaths. During this time, there had actually been 108 Israelis killed (the discrepancy is due to the fact that a number of Israeli deaths were reported multiple times).


During the same period, 543 Palestinian deaths were reported in headlines or first paragraphs. During this time, 821 Palestinians had actually been killed.

In other words, 131% of Israeli deaths and 66% of Palestinian deaths were reported in AP headlines or first paragraphs.

That is, AP reported prominently on Israeli deaths at a rate 2.0 times greater than Palestinian deaths.

In reality, 7.6 times more Palestinians were killed than Israelis in 2004.

http://ifamericansknew.org/media/ap-report.html

 

Uhhh, right. So now NPR is mainstream? And it is actually repeating a claim by B’Tselem. Who is B’Tselem? Why, it is an NGO that supports Palestine in Israel. Yea, real biased, might as well report news from the SPLC.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Look, if you are going to make claims like you have, you have to respond topically. Bringing up reports from 2006 about biased reporting, and something from January (of what year?) simply does not cut it.

And what is your apparent source for all of this? If Americans Know, a site that claims it tells you "what every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine".

And what is their mission statement?

Yea, right. That is a real non-biased organization. Non-biased if you are an Anti-Semite that is.

Sorry, reference flushed for dishonesty and obvious bias without verification.

 

Who said anything about mainstream? I am talking about the media in America which includes mainstream. I have provided links to pieces on the Washington Post, New York Times, PBS and others but you could not find anything to to reply to about those articles which just goes to show how weak your argument is. You do not know who B'Tselem are? It is an Israeli human rights organisation run by Israelis.Are you really calling Jews who report on their own states human rights abuses biased?

I really do not consider that to be an argument but it seems the best you could come up with.

So you could not dispute anything on that site at all and your whole argument consists of nothing at all and claiming anti semitism. I have seen some (*)(*)(*)(*) poor arguments in my time but yours wins the prize for truly crap answers.You could not come up with anything at all, so why even bother posting a reply.Everyone knows that the American media is pro Israeli and to try and deny it is a joke stance.You did not prove anything that I posted to be wrong because you could not.

 

And I guess being treated like Jews in Nazi occupied Europe doesn't have effects on Palestinians?

 

Here is some more for you Mushroom.

Stephen Zunes wrote that "mainstream and conservative Jewish organizations have mobilized considerable lobbying resources, financial contributions from the Jewish community, and citizen pressure on the news media and other forums of public discourse in support of the Israeli government."

According to CUNY professor of journalism, Eric Alterman, debate among Middle East pundits, “is dominated by people who cannot imagine criticizing Israel”. In 2002, he listed 56 columnists and commentators who can be counted on to support Israel “reflexively and without qualification.” Alterman only identified five pundits who consistently criticize Israeli behavior or endorse pro-Arab positions.[93] Journalists described as pro-Israel by Mearsheimer and Walt include: the New York Times’ William Safire, A.M. Rosenthal, David Brooks, and Thomas Friedman (although they say that the latter is sometimes critical of areas of Israel policy); the Washington Post’s Jim Hoagland, Robert Kagan, Charles Krauthammer and George Will; and the Los Angeles Times’ Max Boot, Jonah Goldberg and Jonathan Chait.

The 2007 book The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy argued that there is a media bias in favor of Israel. It stated that a former spokesman for the Israeli Consulate in New York said that: “Of course, a lot of self-censorship goes on. Journalists, editors, and politicians are going to think twice about criticizing Israel if they know they are going to get thousands of angry calls in a matter of hours. The Jewish lobby is good at orchestrating pressure.”

[video=youtube;_A5BY5ZQlVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A5BY5ZQlVs[/video]

 

Declassified Senate Investigation Files Reveal Clandestine Israeli PR Campaign in America

WASHINGTON, Aug. 18 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Declassified files from a Senate investigation into Israeli-funded covert public relations and lobbying activity in the United States were released by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) on July 23rd, 2010. The subpoenaed documents reveal Israel's clandestine programs for "cultivation of editors," the "stimulation and placement of suitable articles in the major consumer magazines" as well as U.S. reporting about sensitive subjects such as the Dimona nuclear weapons facility.

Documents are now available for download from http://IRmep.org/ila/azc include:

Dimona (excerpt): "The nuclear reactor story inspired comment from many sources; editorial writers, columnists, science writers and cartoonists. Most of the press seemed finally to accept the thesis that the reactor was being built for peaceful purposes and not for bombs." http://www.irmep.org/11-121960AZC.pdf

Content placement and promotion (excerpt): "The Atlantic Monthly in its October issue carried the outstanding Martha Gellhorn piece on the Arab refugees, which made quite an impact around the country. We arranged for the distribution of 10,000 reprints to public opinion molders in all categories… Interested friends are making arrangements with the Atlantic for another reprint of the Gellhorn article to be sent to all 53,000 persons whose names appear in Who's Who in America…Our Committee is now planning articles for the women's magazines for the trade and business publications." http://www.irmep.org/09101961AZC.pdf

Pressure campaigns (excerpt): "It can be said that the press of the nation…has by and large shown sympathy and understanding of Israel's position. There are, of course, exceptions, notably the Scripps-Howard chain where we still need to achieve a 'break-through,' the Pulliam chain (where some progress has been made) and some locally-owned papers." http://www.irmep.org/11-121960AZC.pdf

Magazine Committee achievements (excerpt): "We cannot pinpoint all that has already been accomplished by this Committee except to say that it has been responsible for the writing and placement of articles on Israel in some of America's leading magazines...." http://www.IRmep.org/10301962_AZC.pdf

According to Grant F. Smith, director of IRmep, "It is frightening how easily some in the American news media surrendered to a foreign public relations campaign that spent the 2010 equivalent of $36 million over two years. Time has proven most of the planted content to be misleading, if not dangerous. These historical documents hold many important lessons for Americans who have long needed—but rarely received—straight reporting on key Middle East issues."

The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is the nation's record keeper. It retains 1%-3% of the most important documents of business conducted by the United States Federal government. The Israel Lobby Archive, http://IRmep.org/ila is a unit of the Institute for Research: Middle Eastern Policy in Washington.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...israeli-pr-campaign-in-america-100976089.html

 

The thing that rings the bell in my head about this story is that Hamas or whoever supposedly fires a hundred or hundreds of missiles into Israel and doesn't hit a single person. I'm not saying that this is a small issue because no one was hurt, I am incredulous about why no one was hurt. Hundreds of missiles...zero deaths. And yet Israel retaliations start racking a body count instantly?

There have been numerous times in history where suspicious "first-strike" events have happened that catapults a population into war. A portion of these events are found to have been false-flag events, orchestrated by the government in order to instigate a fight. And this whole thing happens as talks between Israel and Palestinians on a two-state solution are trying to make progress.

What I think...Israel is trying to undermine the peace talks in order to push the issue and sweep up the lands it wants before the possibility of a two-state agreement emerges. Israel wants to expand. That's it. If Palestinians get a state next to theirs they will not be able to do so and further, they now have a country that is directly antagonistic to them right across from them.

Washington says that it supports the peace talks and both sides, yet backs Israel unequivocally, pretty much negating any such claims. These are only my opinions, though.

 

I believe that 5 Israelis have died and that includes one soldier while about 110 Palestinians have been murdered by Israel, more than half of them civilians and that includes a few babies and about 10 other children.

 

Well, now that I know where you are coming from, I can pretty much see that any continuation is worthless.

You can't debate with a bigot or racist, it is an exercise in futility. And if that is all you can come up with, not much point in saying anything really.

 

Oh yes, Palestine and Israel is full of pogroms. Did you not know that all Palestinians have to wear a yellow Crescent moon on their clothing, and are forbidden to practice law or medicine? And all businesses own by Palistinians must be markes do in bright yellow paint on the outside.

And we all know about the massive death camps all over the region, with gas chambers and millions killed every year and cremated.

I mean, really?

 

Mostly that is because of the weapons they are using.

The Qassam rockets that Hamas is using are pretty crude and inaccurate, essentially home made Kaytusha rockets launched from home made launchers. Their range is only about 5-12km, and most of that area along the border is pretty much a "No Man's Land". And because of the air raid warnings, most of the people in Israel have been able to make it to bomb shelters before they hit.

However, what should they do? Simply ignore the rockets being fired at them and not retaliate? And I suppose the kidnappings they did were "false flag" as well.

And I guess the almost 800 rockets fired by Hamas into Israel prior to 14 November were "false flag" as well.

And more and more recently, a more advanced rocket has been seen in the conflict, the Fajar-5. This is an Iranian missile, with an increased range (70km), larger warhead (90kg HE), and more accurate (CEP of 4% of range). When you hear about Iron Dome taking out incoming rockets, they are not shooting at the short range Qassam rockets that can barely make it over the border, but the Fajir-5 ones that can reach Tel Aviv.

 

You are bailing out because you have no argument as everyone can see from your posts to me in this thread and now you are back on the anti semitie, bigot,racist bullcrap. I have provided a ton of info with links and you have failed to disprove one word, you turned up with some weak crap argument of a few lines which amounted to nothing. If you are going to try and debate me you are going to need more than posting "yada yada". Big fail on your part.

 

OK, fine. You are not an Anti-Semite, you just reference them and use them to verify your arguments.

There, is that better?

Sorry, it is not a fail for many reasons. For one, I actually go to the sources and provide references to back up my claims. You use a single reference, which is a biased consolidation of a great many sources, that is years out of date.

I mean, come on. You are trying to prove that this conflict has biased reporting, and as evidence posting an article that is over 6 years old. How on earth does that have anything to do with what is going on now? Simply, it does not.

Hey, the Universe revolves around the Earth! And as proof, I present Papal declarations and Catholic Councils that prove it is so! So just ignore all of the things isnce then, this is true, no matter how old it is, and it is still true today!



I am not "bailing", I simply ow how stupid it is to try to debate with somebody that is so irrational and brain locked that there really is no point in it. You think that Israel controls all of the media, fine. You think it is all part of a conspiracy, fine. Enjoy your delusion.

As I have said many times, when I enter into debates of topics like this, I know there is no way I will ever convince those that believe such nonsense that they are wrong. So I do not even attempt to. What I am actually trying to do is to encourage others that wander in to go out and do their own research. Do like I did, go to the actual sources themselves and then to look at what is there. Look things up for themselves, think for themselves, and make up their own minds. Heck, I even encourage them to question what I say, because they should not simply take anything at face value.

If you think that is a threat, that I encourage people to research for themselves instead of accepting at face value the rambles of an anti-semitic site, then that is your problem, not mine.

 

I have done no such thing. You are just unhappy that your claims have been shown to be untrue and the best you could come up with as an argument was to claim I hate Jews(Always a sign of a failed argument). I have provided many links to many things proving my points and you did not dispute even one, your total argument amounted to about 4 lines and insults, that is the height of your debating skills. It is a akin to a 4 year old throwing their toys out of the pram.

Now you are just making things up so that you can bail. At no point have I said that Israel controls the media, this discussion is about the bias in the American media towards Israel and I have proven that while you presented nothing to prove otherwise. Your whole argument was just one long insult and phoney claims of what I posted,it was a very weak and ill thought out rant.

Here are my arguments

http://www.politicalforum.com/terro...ntinual-rocket-fire-hamas.html#post1061981446
http://www.politicalforum.com/terro...ntinual-rocket-fire-hamas.html#post1061981529
http://www.politicalforum.com/terro...inual-rocket-fire-hamas-2.html#post1061981631
http://www.politicalforum.com/terro...inual-rocket-fire-hamas-2.html#post1061981649

and this was the pinnacle of your weak offering.
http://www.politicalforum.com/terro...ntinual-rocket-fire-hamas.html#post1061981569

 

So, "[v]irtually every media outlet" in America--including the "Associated Press, CNN, Fox News, CBS, the New York Times, The Washington Post, the LA Times, the McClatchy Newspapers, etc[.]"--are all unfairly biased against the Palestinians.

All these "media outlet" in America are merely parroting the Israelis' official line, huh?

Well, I suppose that does make some sort of (rather convoluted) sense. For conspiracy theorists, anyway...

 

pjohns, et al,

So, who did initiate the outbreak of hostilities?

(COMMENT)

Why did the Palestinians commence rocket fire?

Most respectfully,
R

 

Certainly, it was initiated by Hamas.

Wikipedia has a compendium of Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel for the year 2012: http://www.ask.com/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012

Please note this part of the article:

Presumably, for the same reason that they have been doing so for such a very long time now, viz.: to drive Israel into the sea...

 

The question really should be "When did the Palestinians ever stop their rocket fire?

Believe it or not, this is an almost daily occurance in Israel. It almost never makes the news unless it follows an attack like we saw recently, but it never stops.

Yet every time some large barrage happens, they try to tie it into some action by Israel, and it suddenly makes the news again, making Israel look like the bad guys. This latest time it was blamed on an attack by Israel on a Hamas leader. However, that attack was part of an attempt to end the incessant rocket attacks in the first place.

The list that PJohns links is one I have used myself in the past. No matter what kind of "Cease Fire" the area is under, there are still rockets almost daily launched from Palestine into Israel. And think about this.

Operation Pillar of Defense, which started with the killing of Ahmed Jabari, started on 14 November. On 11 November over 100 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel. One was a barrage against a town that wounded 4 people on their way to work.

So please tell us, when did Palestine ever really stop the rocket fire?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2009
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008

Quite interesting is that even during the formal "Cease Fire" in 2008, the attacks still did not stop. Remember, on 19 June Hamas entered a formal cease-fire that was supposed to last for 6 months. And later they screamed at the world that Israel broke it (and most of the world played along).