the minimum wage: reality check

They should.

They control far more than 40% of the nation's wealth

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Yea...he's a philanthropist

 

I wouldn't attempt to live in NYC with minimum skills.

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It doesn't matter if they control 90% of the wealth...

 

Agreed, but some people have no choice.

 

People are based on supply and demand. So if you are not paid enough you to figure out what to do to create more supply that will make you more money. Businesses are in business for profit not to provide a certain wage for people. To much entitlement from people wanting stuff and not working for it.

 

No kidding.

So you think the group that controls the most wealth shouldn't pay the most taxes?

Why not? They obviously benefit the most

 

So you're saying that we can trust business to do the right thing because they're profit driven?

But wouldn't cheating their workers and cutting corners on the product produce the most profit?

Why do you think we have the FDA and organizations like that? Because businesses will KILL you if they think they can increase their profit and get away with it.

Do you know what the word "swill" is?

look it up. They used to sell spoiled milk until that practice was outlawed.

 

And like the good little capitalist and Trump supporter...you're dedicated to keeping middle class wages as low as possible.

 

They do.

How do wealthy people benefit the most? Paying higher taxes makes you smarter?

 

Exactly. People do not create a business with the intention of creating jobs. Jobs are a side effect of a successful business.

 

Not at all. The wealthy and business people would like to see many more people get wealthy, many more people with more money to spend, because that expands the economy- to everyone's benefit. The difference in viewpoint here is that they know this can only be done by developing productivity, not by paying more for the exact same services, which is the very essence of inflation and benefits no one. Wages are equivalent to value- a way to make the exchange, or bartering of various services or products easier. If you wage doubles but all expenses also double, you have gained absolutely nothing. When people stop treating others as their enemy and work together, everything gets better. Try being that kind of employee and see how fast things change.

The hard part isn't the logic, any clear mind can understand it. But changing the prejudice, the desire to condemn the successful instead of asking them how to succeed- that seems to be cast in stone. People refuse to learn, to discipline themselves and act in their own best interest- instead, they blame others.... employers mostly. As the comic strip character pogo once said, :We have seen the enemy- and he is us".

 

Businesses do what is best for them. If someone does not like how the business is run they can find a better job or get more skills or education and get an even better job. Like I have said before businesses do not owe its workers a certain wage they have to pay only what they can afford pay your employees to much and you will have to lay people off or go out of business.

 

Yes; business persons should work hard if they want to indulge in morals instead of profit. Only socialism requires social morals for free not capitalism.

 

You mention productivity as if people haven't become several orders of magnitude more productive in the last 40 ought years. IF wages were truly tied to productivity, as you claim, we wouldn't be needing to have this conversation. Instead, wages are tied to market forces that have been manipulated by the elites for the elites (who may or may not be employers) at the expense of everyone else. If you condemn the average Joe for whining, and not in the same breath condemn the elites who corrupt our government body, your criticism rings hollow.

Further, and this is important. People are going to do whatever it takes to take care of themselves and their families. People didn't just become lazier or stupider or suddenly give up on independence.The entry to financial stability has never been as high as its been since the 1940's. They will use higher education to get there, they will use multiple jobs to get there, they will study and they will network(as I do). And yes, of course, they will use their votes and they will use their voices to get there. And there is nothing wrong or immoral about that.

Finally, I don't blame employers or the rich. If they are playing within the rules set I don't blame them for compensation that has been anemic even as profits soar. But if you think I'm going to let their opinions of "fair" or "just" get in the way of me effecting change (with my voice and my vote) that's in my best interest, you're sorely mistaken.

 

Productivity has indeed increased dramatically. But my parents worked 14 hours a day. My first job paid $0.65 an hour. So a few other things have changed as well. Productivity is not just people related. You drive great cars and twiddle messages on your cell phone because of innovation, technology and so on. An old-time machinist ran the machine and controlled every step of making a part. Today's machinists load a block of metal on a mill table, pick a computer file for the needed part, create a start point- then pushes a button and sits back. Skills and talent for most trades have fallen, because of the wonders of engineering and technology. Worker skill and effort IS NOT responsible for our growth- but they benefit dramatically from the technology and innovations. Today's standard of living is higher than ever, and people work less hours with less effort than the generations before them. Go talk to some old people, and find out what life was like 70-80 years ago compared to now- and those people were happier, and the whiners were far fewer. We fail to appreciate what we have- we just demand more, and many do not understand the correlation between the value of your work and the size of your paycheck. We are becoming dumber. People fill out a job app and immediately show that they are borderline illiterate. Cashiers can't do math. Our ratings in education are down to about 20th compared to the rest of the world. Look it up.

There are good and bad personalities on both sides of the fence. Some employers are obnoxious users- but so are a lot of employees. Unions are virtually organized crime protected by government. It's not all good or bad on either side. But business isn't trying to hurt employees, it's just trying to sort out those who can help it run and stay away from the troublemakers. hard to do, and they, like you, are shopping for the best quality and value when they spend their money. If they don't, their business fails.

The entry to financial stability is NOT harder- but it is different. The means to not only stability but wealth are readily available- free. I used to teach this, but I quit for the simple reason that I tired of people rejecting what would work and insisting on something that would work today. Instant gratification. I've mentored many as well- and most will re-order the priorities and blow it. That IS stupidity; when you can see the plan and how it works and lack the discipline to follow it. No cure for that, and that attitude is not my problem- and I won't rake the responsibility for their weakness.

I have a high school education. I've been in debt up to my hiney, lived a winter in a shed because it was all I could do. Never took a dime in help, not so much as an unemployment check. When I got tired of all that, I dedicated myself to doing what I always knew was the way to wealth. Today, I owe nothing. I own a business, have stocks, cash, a supercar and a few other toys- and I can and would teach any willing person how to do it. I won't waste my time with the guy who wants a hot stock tip, or the guy who tells me I don't understand his position and excuses.

I will tell you this- the power to succeed is something everyone can have, but you have to get your butt behind the wheel of your bus and quit blaming anyone but yourself for where it goes. When you do that, you empower yourself, and amazingly- you control your own destiny. The fact that most people choose not to do that is partly due to all the politicians and liberals telling them that they have no control, and the way to make more money is to legislate it. Hogwash- and being bought because it allows avoiding personal responsibility. That is something your grandparents didn't do, in order to give us the opportunities we are pissing away today.

 

You say that it's not harder to gain financial stability now a days, just different? How do you figure? If it's just as easy to do today as it was back then, how come people can't seem to figure it out? How come entry level jobs posted require a degree?

You hand wave and point to your experience as if that's something someone on the internet could take at face value as true. Here's some of my experience talking with people who are long in the tooth- My mother in law was complaining about how she raised her kids on just her fathers "measly" 6.00 hr. dollars an hour. Turns out that's the equivalent of $35.00 an hour today. Full benefits, a pension. He didn't even have a HS degree. Any jobs like that around? I'd work 16 hour days at that rate.

I talk to people in IT (my profession) who said that they got their start in the 80's 90's just because they were a radio hobbyist and the job grew around them. That crap just doesn't happen anymore. Maybe it will happen again, but its not the sort of thing to expect or predict.

When did you start out making .65 cents an hour? I want to adjust for inflation and show you how good you had it. You say you lived in a shed in the winter? Yup, been there, done that, me and my now wife living in her achieva up to our eyeballs in debt working our way through college.

Face it, people starting out now have it harder then the generation before- we're competing with people around the world who work for pennies. If we don't work as hard because there is less gainful work to be done.

You, as a business owner should know that times change. Your parents worked 14 hours a day? GOOD SO DO I! Ask em' how their studies were going at college(oh wait they probably didn't need a degree back then to find entry-level work) Its just a shame we've back slid to the point where the only way to make it. Jobs are easier now? Maybe less labor intensive, but much more head intensive, and much more competitive.

At least I have my cell phone, sincere congrats on all of your success.

 

good idea

 

You need to find different economists to listen to.

Where does the additional money to cover the increased wages come from?

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Why do you think it's acceptable to raise it just below the point that is unsustainable?

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And when businesses have conspired to keep unemployment high and wages low...you think that still "works"?

 

When you outlaw lowed skill jobs, those without the skills to produce enough to overcome your morally appropriate wage will have to live off government assistance, anyway.

 

What planet do you live on?

 

This line of reasoning is such bullshyt. One thing hardly has anything to do with the other!!! The cost of labor is based on the supply of workers qualified to do a job. The more qualified workers, the less the job pays. This has absolutely nothing to do with what the CEO is making. You see how a free society works?

 

Who the (*)(*)(*)(*) are you to say what kind of agreement two adults can come to? You don't even understand nature of the problem.

 

The "problem" is that employers (who are making record profits off the labor of their workers) feel no compunction to pay those workers enough to live on.

 

I like $500 an hour and a free unicorn. All that makes just as much sense.

The real minimum wage is always zero - Milton Friedman