The theory that Isaeli intelligence knew about the attacks beforehand

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Scott, Oct 9, 2023.

  1. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is no evidence that Israel knew any specifics about the attack beforehand.

    happy to look at any provided.
     
  2. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    It amazes me that people can be so tribal to view one side of this conflict as angels and the other as devils, when there is of course hatred, terror, and attrocity on both "sides". It also amazes that people have tunnel vision on "sides" and don't recognize the wide variety of views of the millions of individuals involved. That Palestinian 5 year old that was blown up isn't Hamas. That teenager who got kidnapped by Hamas isn't Netanyahu.
     
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  3. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I assure you there was no intent. I wrote it, and sometimes text is inserted elsewhere on a page. Sorry, that I did not catch it.

    --------------------

    This is where this just goes around in circles. You say brutally occupied. What came first, the brutal occupation, or the murderous thuggery? It is my contention that the sole reason that Israel has the Palestinians in such a box ( what you are titling brutal) is because of their poor behavior. They have to do so to stem the tide of murderous bombings and killing that they perpetrate upon innocents. If they did not act so poorly, Israel would have no reason in the world to treat them poorly.

    I happen to be one-half American Indian. My mother was full-blooded. We have just as much claim to having our land stolen as do the Palestinians, so I have first-hand experience with this very concept.

    Lands get conquered all the time. At some point, the defeated need to move on with their lives. This is not an excuse to be criminals into eternity. You don't see Indians firing rockets from their reservations. If they were to do so, I would be the first person to call them criminals, just as I label terrorist perpetrating Palestiniaians as criminals. It is one thing to attempt to militarily overthrow the government that conquered your land, but killing civilians for no strategic purpose whatsoever? That is nothing but murder. I could maybe understand if this has just happened 5 years ago, but it has been almost 80 years. This would have been like the Indians murdering civilians in the 1950's and then just smugly writing it off as doing what any occupied people would do and have done, they resist. That is absolute nonsense. The people specifically targeting innocent civilians are murderous thugs and nothing more.

    I will repeat, Personally, I have no empathy for the Palestinians because they have been murderous terrorists for my entire lifetime. There is no way that their murderous actions should be used to create sympathy for their plight. If you act like animals, I will think of you as animals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
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  4. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you believe that the buffer zone is not a response to rockets being lobbed and trying to protect their people from such, rather they just want to gain another few miles of territory? Seriously? Does that honestly make even a lick of sense to you? They need tiny slivers of land that badly?

    You have been sold a bill of goods.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
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  5. AKS

    AKS Banned

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    I'm sorry but it's silly to view the conflict in such a granular manner. It may seem simplistic to the "intellectuals" (lol) but the question boils down to whether Israel has the right (and frankly the duty) to eliminate Hamas. If the answer is yes then it can't be done without civilian casualties. This fact is amplified by the way Hamas interweaves itself with the civilian population. I'm sorry, but everything I've learned on this subject leads me to believe that the aggression is initiated by Hamas.
     
  6. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    Because they is exactly what has been happening! Settlers move into the buffer zones in the west Bank and the buffer zones are then moved further into the Palestinian west Bank area to "protect" the settlers. That has been happening for decades. Open your eyes
     
  7. FAW

    FAW Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is what has been happening. That much is not in doubt.

    What is in doubt is the reason behind it. You say that it is because they want to gain more land. I say that it is because they are doing anything they can to create some sort of margin of safety for its innocent citizens, and that the tiny amount of land in question is of little to no significance. It is all about protecting against crude bombs being thrown indiscriminately.

    I feel that my argument is far more persuasive and logical.
     
  8. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :blahblah: A reminder of the thread topic :
    :below:
    The theory that Isaeli intelligence knew about the attacks beforehand
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2023
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  9. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    No, it isn't that simple. Israel has the right to eliminate Hamas. The question then is how to go about it.

    Likely yes, but "civilian casualties" is a broad spectrum. They could evacuate the area around Gaza and carpet bomb or nuke the area, killing everyone inside. They could enter and occupy Gaza and act as police act towards criminals, taking great care not to kill civilians, etc. They could also cease settling, indiscriminately killing, etc, and try ot build up a better relationship with the Palestinian people, or viliffy Palestinians declaring them all to be Hamas. These decisions matter.

    There is also the PR war to consider. Israel receives a lot of foreign aid (including tons from the US), so they need to be able to claim the moral highground. That likely restricts their actions. With Netanyahu it may be the only thing that does.
     
  10. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Egypth has stated they warned Israel beforehand. I find it hard ot believe Israel didn't know.
     
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  11. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Egypt gave Israel the specifics about where exactly the attacks would be??

    BS
     
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  12. James California

    James California Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    ~ Yes , and the Egyptian intelligence statement has been blatantly absent from mainstream media "news" reports.
    Mossad is one of the world's largest espionage agencies , and very likely has worked with the USA's CIA in some clandestine nefarious activity. Between these two organizations there is likely very little that they do not know about — and may even have influence over .
    I do not trust any countries government — nor do I use network media for information. Always best to be suspicious and look to independent journalists for information.
     
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  13. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's cuz it doesn't exist.
     
  14. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Netanyahu ran on and has long thumped his chest about keeping Israel safe from terrorism and the amazing inteligence and espionage organization of Israel. Yet somehow they did not have any idea this attack would happen, on an important aniversary date no less? I find that very very hard to believe.
     
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  15. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I believe you about that editing issue.
    We get in a hurry trying to communicate our thoughts, hit the wrong key and ..... everybody does it.

    -------------------------------------------

    Re:
    I spent 10 - 11 months walking and hitch hiking around the Middle East including Palestinian refugee camps in Southern Lebanon where I spent lots of time talking to Palestinian refugees, looking at their tattered photos of their former homes, shops, farms and murdered relatives.

    I don't see how the tragic losses of these Nakba survivors are any less credible and worthy of reparation than the widely publicized and well compensated Holocaust survivors.

    You asked
    As of 1880, only about 2% - 3% of Palestine's population was Jewish. The rest were predominantly Muslims, Christians, and other smaller denominations.
    Briefly put, the Jews and Arabs had been living (and fighting) together for centuries until the invasion of foreign, Zionist terrorist gangs according to the British Hope-Simpson report of 1930. (1)

    So, I think that we can pinpoint the introduction of modern terrorism into Palestine with the arrival of Nazi trained and armed (2), foreign Zionist terrorists.
    Where else in Europe were Jewish diamond merchants, shopkeepers and bankers trained in the use of explosives and small arms?

    The Haavara Agreement between the German Zionist Federation and Germany's National Socialists (Nazis) was yet another way in which the Nazis aided their like minded Zionist terrorists.

    Germany's Nazis and Zionists were / are so closely affiliated that Averham Stern of the Zionist terrorist gang, Lehi, offered to join Germany in driving the British out of the Levant and North Africa (Ankara Document)

    So the similarities between the Zionists and Germany's National Socialists are significant: "Chosen People" = "Master Race", "Greater Israel = Lebensraum" and both were determined to drive out inferior "animals" only the Zionists have the more sophisticated, global propaganda ministry that praises one ethnic cleansing and condemns another.

    So, the Levant may not have been an entirely peaceful place for Muslims and Jews but it was with the foreign invasion of Zionist land thieves and mass murderers that modern terrorism was introduced to Palestine and mass murdering miscreants like Netanyahu are no better than the lowest Hamas thug. He just has MSM and his Hasbara Propaganda ministry on his side.

    Thanks,











    (1). “Top Ten Myths about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict”
    http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

    EXCERPT "Myth #1 – Jews and Arabs have always been in conflict in the region.

    Although Arabs were a majority in Palestine prior to the creation of the state of Israel, there had always been a Jewish population, as well. For the most part, Jewish Palestinians got along with their Arab neighbors. This began to change with the onset of the Zionist movement, because the Zionists rejected the right of the Palestinians to self-determination and wanted Palestine for their own, to create a “Jewish State” in a region where Arabs were the majority and owned most of the land.

    The British Hope-Simpson report of 1930 similarly noted that Jewish residents of non-Zionist communities in Palestine enjoyed friendship with their Arab neighbors. “It is quite a common sight to see an Arab sitting in the verandah of a Jewish house”, the report noted. “The position is entirely different in the Zionist colonies."CONTINUED


    “Zionism and the Third Reich”
    https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_Weber.html

    EXCERPT “In cooperation with the German authorities, Zionist groups organized a network of some forty camps and agricultural centers throughout Germany where prospective settlers were trained for their new lives in Palestine. Although the Nuremberg Laws forbid Jews from displaying the German flag, Jews were specifically guaranteed the right to display the blue and white Jewish national banner. The flag that would one day be adopted by Israel was flown at the Zionist camps and centers in Hitler's Germany. /19

    Himmler's security service cooperated with the Haganah, the Zionist underground military organization in Palestine. The SS agency paid Haganah official Feivel Polkes for information about the situation in Palestine and for help in directing Jewish emigration to that country. Meanwhile, the Haganah was kept well informed about German plans by a spy it managed to plant in the Berlin headquarters of the SS. /20 Haganah-SS collaboration even included secret deliveries of German weapons to Jewish settlers for use in clashes with Palestinian Arabs. /21

    In the aftermath of the November 1938 "Kristallnacht" outburst of violence and destruction, the SS quickly helped the Zionist organization to get back on its feet and continue its work in Germany, although now under more restricted supervision. /22” CONTINUED
     
  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course Netanyahu and his gang of mass murdering thugs knew in advance.

    This is precisely what they either wanted and / or planned; the perfect excuse to murder Palestine's native residents and steal the rest of their land.

    This isn't the first time that Zionists have been willing to sacrifice Jewish lives in order to secure their "Greater Israel":

    "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."
    -- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation)


    Thanks,
     
  17. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you have no evidence.
     
  18. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you have no actual evidence, just baseless speculation.
     
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  19. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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  20. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Does not matter if Egypt gave warnings - now Israeli press writes that there were warnings about Hamas attacks and Israeli army had meetings what to do about this warnings - the last meeting was a few hours before the attack. Israel collects information from many sources and in case of warnings there are discussions what to do. If the warning sounds reliable, the orders are passed to the army units to sleep in shoes, prepare to fight, the guards post are doubled, all vacations are cancelled or to make prevention attack. Hamas prepared for this action for more than one year, so I guess such alarms were raised many times, until someone decided it is again a false alarm.
    Is it possible that Netanyahu on purpose purpose allowed Hamas attack? If you are a person with predisposition for strong believes and weaker rational thinking - it is perfect case to believe it, but:
    Israel is a democratic country with strong anti-Netanyahu opposition, so Netanyahu must be real idiot believing that his action will not be revealed.
    The decision not to do anything despite the warning was written in some documents with names of people who took this decision. In Israel high officers after professional service in the army are becoming politicians or getting managerial jobs in private companies or in government positions. Name of these officers will be published in Israeli press and the the future of these people does not look promising.
    So IMHO it was a failure of Israeli army.
     
  21. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  22. Betamax101

    Betamax101 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point.
     
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  23. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Without detailed time/place info about an impending attack, there isn't really much Israel could do. Just like the USA on 9-11.
     
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  24. zalekbloom

    zalekbloom Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually Israeli army could at least gave warnings to army units near Gaza to stay alert and to cancel all vacations. Israeli press writes about extensively. Hopefully after the war this subject will be investigated, like the Agranat Commission after the Yom Kippur war.
     
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  25. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If it turns out that Israeli intelligence had good warning that something very big was going to happen in the south in Oct 7, and no warnings were given out to events and gatherings, that would be a problem.

    So far I haven't seen that.
     
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