The world hasn't addressed PREJUDICE and BIGOTRY.

Prejudice. Bigotry. Discrimination. Intolerance. Fear. Hatred.

The idea that there is something wrong with being 'different' or 'weird' or 'not normal'. That 'difference' is something to fear or hate.

Something on another thread reminded me about a subject I've been considering for some time; that we haven't really addressed this problem in society at all yet.

Of course, we have made great strides in dealing with some particular prejudices, and that is to be heartily welcomed. What we have done, though, has failed to address the underlying cause of the issue. We have dealt with some of the more common symptoms, but barely dealt with the actual problem itself at all.

The problem is that of people fearing or hating people who aren't like them; treating people differently on the basis of difference, and/or treating people as lesser human beings because they were born 'different', or have chosen to be or to look in some way 'different'. It is the perceived difference between 'normal' and 'not normal' - the idea that 'normal' is 'good' and 'not normal' is bad. It can be a deeply rooted idea in humans, of course, which is why it needs to be dealt with. It has hardly been addressed at all, though.

Instead of addressing that problem at its root we have concentrated on publicly 'normalising' some of those groups who have most regularly or most seriously been victims of the problem, if you see what I mean. In the minds of many, it's thankfully now much more commonly OK to be black, or to be gay, or to be Jewish, or to be disabled, and that is a great thing, but it often doesn't extend to all other groups who are seen as 'different'. Some people 'get it', of course, but many somehow just don't seem to - to some it seems still to be the case that it's OK to be black or gay, but it's not OK to be a Muslim, or a 'Goth', or just to dress or live life in a way that is 'not normal'.

It seems to me that we have addressed some particular symptoms in society by a process of 'normalisation' of formerly considered 'not normal' groups, but that isn't really solving the actual problem at all. Some people just don't seem to understand the fact that 'freedom' absolutely has to come with tolerance and more - for a society to be free, the people within it must be free to be what they are, and to be what they want, without others treating them in any way worse or differently on that basis. Without that, there can be no freedom - people who are not free to be how they were born, or to live how they choose, or to look how they want, are not living in a free society at all. Social oppression through prejudice is no different from political oppression - the freedom only to conform to other people's idea of 'normal' is not freedom at all.

I'm not pretending to know the solution. Sadly, it often seems to be some of those who shout most loudly about 'freedom' that don't get the idea that that freedom can only exist if people in society are actually free to be who they are! I find that hard to understand, but I don't really know how to improve the situation. How do we get across to people the idea that it's not just OK now to consider those 'normalised' groups to be fine, but that we have to eliminate the actual issue of only accepting what we think is 'normal' at all?

 

When you cite to those without evidencing actual, specific, discriminatory treatment under the law, you are merely engaging in more race-baiting equivalent hot air, of which we have quite enough of here already. We have been held hostage to a 110 decibel bullhorn blaring out those very capitalized words for 50+ years. It has become tired, trite, and especially short on substance.

OP post reminds me of all the OWS folks who when interviewed couldn't even describe specific things they were protesting, just empty generalizations.

 

You hit the nail on the head there.

We shouldn't be hating, or fearing, or discriminating against other people. The essential problem is the capacity for hatred and loathing just because someone is different, not the physical results of that.

I don't understand how it can be that this needs to be said in today's society, and I don't understand how anyone can take issue with what you're saying.

 

Hating because of differences is a human trait are your never going to get rid of it.

The best you can do is try to limit the consequences.

Here is a video of Jane Elliot teaching her third graders about racism by actually turning them into little hating racist heathens in the space of 15 minutes based on the color of their eyes.

Then to show how easy humans fall for this she reverses it and turns the other kids into vengeful little haters.

Everyone should watch this if they haven't seen it.

Lesson starts at 4:30,

[video=youtube;uQAmdZvKf6M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQAmdZvKf6M[/video]

 

Yup.

Those Moslems are some seriously prejudiced bigots, aren't they?

 

You don't consider electing a racist and a bigot as president is "doing something"?

 

Ah, Jane Elliots infamous blue eyes brown eyes experiment.

She gets in to a lot of trouble for that one, but i digress.

Youc an not eliminate human nature. You can only eliminate humans.

 

Should we then accept serial killers as normal after all they're just a little bit off from the rest of us? How about serial pedophiles? Normal is about drawing lines about what is acceptable behavior and what is not acceptable behavior. Black isn't a behavior nor is Caucasian mongoloid or Australian Aborigine. Homosexuality is a behavior.

 

Conversely, there's no freedom if one cannot express thoughts and views which seem bigoted, racist, or whatever.

There is no 'final solution'. What can be done has already been done. The only thing to be done from here is ban and punish certain speech and ideas, which again is detrimental to freedom, and fascist without doubt.

 

Once equal laws are passed and enforced it is simply a matter of time until the races assimilate then we will begin to see these problems disappear. Had the US allowed blacks to assimilate after the Civil War we wouldn't have this large racial problem today.

In a few more generations the problem should be hardly noticeable anymore.

 

I disagree, but whatever, time will tell.

 

Of course we shouldn't. There's a world of difference, though, between criminal behaviour that effects the lives of others and making personal life choices that don't effect anybody else.

 

I can't disagree with that. Indeed, the best way to get down to the root cause of the problem and defeat such ideas is to get them out into the open and discuss them, not to lock them away to fester.

 

Oh no, if there was an assimilation of that sort they'd simply start hating each other for some other reason. Humans are predators, they will always find a reason to prey on each other...

 

That it is just 'human nature' is a very big assumption, and one with which I would not agree. Very young children and babies don't, for example, inevitably run away from other children with different coloured skin. They don't naturally fear other kids just because they don't look the same as them - they readily accept them and play with them, just like anyone else. It is something that develops later, and that is something environmental rather than genetic - kids are being taught that kind of hate and fear quite early on, and then spreading it among themselves in the playground.

 

I don't disagree with that.

The problems are:

most people don't really want to discuss, they want to shout down people in order to change their beliefs, not discuss and resolve like adults do.

And of course, the over use of such words as racism and bigot.

using these tactics never accomplishes anything and only generates more hositlity and resentment.

 

Sounds like you want all or nothing. That's never going to happen. People are going to always come up with reasons to not like people who are different than them. That's never going to change. As long as society embraces equal protection under the law, than that's as good as it's going to get.

 

That has not been my personal experience. You have no idea how cruel children can be to other children.

 

if u look at the entire world, especially "modern" countries, i think one can say that its getting steadily a bit better. homosexuality and race for example not relevant for more and more people. the progress is very slow tho, and countries like russia, USA and all non-secular nations in general hinder this progress.

 

sad experience...i really have no idea how babies and toddlers are cruel to each other out of prejudice or bigotry, ive never seen that, elaborate on that plz...

of course children can be very cruel, everyone knows that saying, they usually can speak and think properly at this point and have had a lot of conversations with parents and/or watched a lot tv, so obviously these are not the persons the argument refers to...but even they generally don't discriminate against "otherness" tho.

 

No man or woman is an island everything you do effects some one else one way or the other. Prejudice and bigotry are behaviors. We don't jail people for lying yet that easily destroys lives and ruins relationships.

 

It's funny... you don't really put any qualifications on these statements.

What about incest? Polygamy? Bestiality? Minor-attracted persons?

Should they be allowed to be who they want to be?

 

They certainly can be, but at the very early stages they aren't cruel based on 'differences' - that only happens later into childhood, when they have absorbed influences from the adults around them, and from other adults via other children. That's my point - discrimination, and cruelty based on discrimination, not something born into children but something they absorb from their environment quite early on in life.

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That is a red herring, of course. Those are things that do have a significant effect on others - those are not things that happen between consenting adults, and are not simply inherent differences or personal lifestyle choices that don't cause a problem for anyone else.

 

We've been addressing these issues my entire life. The problem is that there is an industry, led by a handful of race baiters who's lucrative living depends on keeping all of those bad things alive and well. It's their personal mission to fan the flames of racism and bigotry at every opportunity. Especially dishonestly.

 

Being black, or being gay, or having different beliefs, or wearing different clothes, etc. - these are not things that have any effect at all on others unless others choose somehow to be 'offended' by them and decide not to like those people who are 'different'. That is not the fault of the person who is 'different' in some way, but entirely the fault and responsibility, and problem, of those who choose to think of them as lesser on that basis. It is not the person who is different having an effect, it is the other person who is choosing for some reason to be effected. That is a completely different thing.

Prejudice and bigotry are indeed behaviours - they are unacceptable behaviours to be exhibiting in a free society. In a free society, people must be free to be 'different' (either inherently or by choice) without suffering from discrimination or hatred on that basis - the alternative is not freedom at all.

A society where people are only 'free' to conform to someone else's idea of 'normal' is not a free society. At the moment we have, as I said, made great strides in 'normalising' certain groups who were previously considered to not be 'normal', but that's missing the point somewhat because other groups are still being treated differently for supposedly being 'not normal' in the eyes of some other people. The point is not just that it's now much more 'normal' to be black or gay, but that there is really absolutely nothing wrong with not being 'normal', or being 'different' in some way.

Obviously that applies as long as the choices and behaviours aren't ones that have a direct adverse effect on anyone else. There is actually something wrong with being a murderer, for example, because other people do have the right not to be murdered! That's a very direct effect on someone else, so obviously not simply a 'free lifestyle choice'. Other people absolutely do not, however, have any kind of right not to be offended by the mere presence of someone they consider 'different' or 'not normal', or by their choice to behave in ways that do not directly effect them at all.