There is no hope for Islam.

Many times, I have suggested reform, modernity for Islam and the Muslims. But it seems it might not be possible. The Muslim nations must be conquered with many tactics not just force, which will be necessary for Iran. Revolution, of course, hence Arab Spring. But there are the Islamists. Please. There never has been Islamists, only Muslims who believe in Islam or those who would rather enjoy the good things in life and make like they believe in parts.

There are many lapse Christians and Jews, who are also quasi-religious on the high holidays. Some donate to be recognized as still part of the community.

Before I started my weblog I belonged to a forum where the topics were mainly about the Middle East. A converted Dutchman tried to educate me about Islam and how wonderful it was in Morocco, with a benign King. He invited me to see for myself. I passed, but I asked him about the beauty and intelligence. Everything he came up with wasn't accomplished by Muslims. Even the recent infrastructures. The ideology prefers to have second class citizens to do the work, inlcuding the thinking while the believers prayed five times a day.

However, the majority have difficulty being that devout when they have tasted the offerings of the West and they see how Israel has turned sand into beauty and intelligence. The ignorant Muslims wish to destroy Israel so the Israelis could be their equal with little or nothing. But the (*)(*)(*)(*) Jews are too smart and work too hard, they must be little satans. That's it, think the clerics because it says so in the Koran.

Something was, still is, wrong.

The Dutchman gave up on me and I think he might have gone back to his previous religion or perhaps become an atheist.

Islam is a problem. Even wise Muslims in the Muslim nations know that.

Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of founder of Hamas, converted to Christianity and said reform is impossible.

“These words I am giving you with lots of pain,” he says. “Because this is the painful truth. Most of the fundamental issues that we face as Arab nations are connected to one thing, that is the absolute control of religion over people’s lives.”

“I take a stand against Islam,” he adds. “There is no way, trust me, to moderate Islam, to neutralize it, to make it fit into this new world that we live in. Unfortunately, Islam has a whole system that does not believe in separation between state and church; that does not believe in coexistence with anybody who does not believe in the theology of Islam. In fact, it does not have any harmony within the religion itself.”....

....“I came to the conclusion that there is no hope to reform Islam,” Mr. Yousef says.

“This is why, when we go to Muslim countries, we see all this ignorance and see all this persecution and torture, and beating women, and killing people and terrorism. The entire world situation today is because there is no way to reform that religion.

“I know that I look really bad and when I make a statement against Islam I am considered politically incorrect and trying to inflame the situation. But I tell you, I know the needs of my people. The most important thing that our people need is freedom from the grip of religion.”

The son of Hamas’ founder says there is no hope to reform Islam
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ounder-says-there-is-no-hope-to-reform-islam/

 

As with most posts on this forum, your words shall fall on deaf ears or you'll be attacked for stirring up hatred. 'Tis not nice to upset the Politically Correct crowd, they might have a bad day.

The truth is not received well.

 

The Dangers of Legitimizing Muslim Grievances
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/11/dangers-of-legitimizing-islamic.html


Grievance is the stories that Muslims tell themselves to justify their violence. To explain why they kill children and why they murder the innocent. The list of grievances is an endless as the violence. Every act of violence carries its own narrative. The endless Muslim conflicts throughout the world all carry their burden of history. But it isn't a history that can be resolved with a tolerance session.

Muslim grievances are the frustration of conquerors, the broken teeth of predators who weren't allowed to feed on the world until their stomachs burst. All the lands they couldn't conqueror, the peoples who rebelled against their rule, the inferior civilizations that pushed them back and drove them off. The swine who build skyscrapers and enjoy the fine things in life.

 

Sounds like you are pretty young and have never spent time anywhere in the Muslim world... but you did talk with one Ducthman from Morocco.

 

I don't see the "no hope" part of the equation.

Fundamentally, they have tons of children, spread and, despite our efforts to the contrary, terrorism is pretty effective at getting what you want out of other countries. They do not hold the lives of their fellows in particularly high regard, so if an enemy country wishes to send some of them to heaven, so be it.

Psychotic? Maybe. A plague on the west? Perhaps.

But it is also effective. And the west is simply not genocidal enough to do anything about it.

Islam may someday leave the dark ages. But if it does not, it isn't Islam that is without hope. Instead it is perhaps the west that will have to put its hope in countries like China.

 

Radical Islam is the problem. Not Islam itself. The western media would love you to think all Muslims are radicals because then we don't protest when the military kills civilians and children. Radical Christianity killed many people in the past as well. So have radicals from nearly every religion. Wow, atheists have killed a bunch of people too. Maybe using your logic people in general are just the problem since regardless of belief system people still kill people and atrocities have been committed. You cannot brand an entire religion over the actions of a few. Deny ignorance.

 

I can't stand political correctness. However, I can't stand people who want to judge an entire race of people or an entire belief system over the actions of a few. That is ignorance plain and simple. There are good people and bad people of every color, shape, size, and yes religion falls into that category as well.

 

It is true that there are different branches of Islam. Those guys with the extra prophet from India don't sound half bad.

And obviously most Muslims in the west aren't violent. However it does seem that in contrast to Christianities underlying "turn the other cheek" message, Islam encourages violence.

So again, while it is obvious communities as a whole can manage to live their lives without committing terrorists acts, they may be like Christians unwilling to tithe or do the other things Christians ought to do.

Every group has bad apples, it just seems like when you get bad apples in Islam you get mass murder attempts.

Now that they can vote, we'll also get to see what Muslims choose to do democratically. I suppose I'm still hopeful there, and I suppose in general. I think the future of Islam is an open question.

 

Islam teaches forgiveness.. Read the Koran.

 

Any religion that wishes to politically infiltrate a country and convert from the inside out is a religion to be weary of.

Islam is doing this quite well in Europe, and that is a bit frightening.

 

The way Christian missionaries "infiltrated" South and Central America, Hawaii and ALL the Americas?

 

Islam teaches forgiveness for Muslims.

Conversion, death, or taxes for the rest of us. Their prophet was a vengful warrior. Showing mercy to his enemies was not his MO.

 

No for others as well... You might want to read the Koran.

When you live with them, work alongside them, travel in their countries, you learn alot about real people.

 

They did not openly advocate the deaths of cartoonists, now did they?

 

If you can't stand it. Sit down. It's not about a race of people it is though the belief system that forcibaly turns people away from Jesus and onto a path by a false leader, Mohammed. Ditto for the Mormons, Jehovah Witness's, New Age, Hindu, Buddhist, you name it. All fallen men, all leading to anywhere but God.

 

Islam forgives not. It is the religion of anything but peace and love. Don't read the Quran, it's a miserable follow up act to the real thing, the Holy Bible.

 

They burned or hung anyone who opposed them.. witches, other Christians, heretics, Cathars.

 

Have you read the Qu'ran? If not then maybe you should not speak about what their message is. Furthermore, pulling a verse out of a book with no context does no good. I have seen atheists pull a bible verse saying Jesus told his followers to bring people to slaughter at his feet. The atheist that asserted this pulled a verse from the Parable of Ten Minas. If he would have read the context of the verse he would have realized Jesus was telling a story and not literally telling his followers to bring people to kill. Pulling verses out of context causes confusion. The same has been done to Islam by people in the West. Do not fear what you simply do not understand. That statement is not pointed at you, it is meant for everyone.

So since the Inquistion, witch burning of innocent people, Bloody Mary, etc., etc. didn't happen in the last 50 years that means Islam is the only religion that has every carried out mass murder. That is completely hypocritical. I do not think Jesus would have supported any of those acts yet they were done in the name of Christianity. Bad apples belong to all groups like you said but to act like Radical Muslims are the only religious fanatics that have caused mass murder is to deny history.

It is yet to be seen if we truly installed democracy in those countries. I would wager we installed puppet governments that will do our bidding. One thing you will learn about America is we will remove dictators when it serves our purpose but we will also remove democracies when it serves our purpose. The U.S. does not care about installing democracy anywhere. The U.S. simply does whatever best serves their imperialistic and economic interests.

 

I am not suggesting you convert. I wouldn't either.. But there is no reason for Christians to be ignorant of other faiths.

 

I am a Christian. However, it is not for me to decide whether these people, who belong to other religions, will make it to Heaven or not. That is God's decision. I do not pretend to know how God will judge anyone. To think you know how God will judge them is complete arrogance. Jesus said the "only way to the Father is through me". That could mean the only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Jesus. It could also mean that the only way to get to Heaven is to accept the Christ consciousness. Loving others, not discriminating, etc. Jesus often spoke in parables, his messages can be interpreted many ways. The literal meaning is not necessarily what Jesus meant all the time thus the parables. Jesus did NOT preach a message of hate towards anyone. He preached a message of love. Hating others for being different than you, persecuting them, and spreading ignorance is not what I would ever consider to be Christ like. Which as Christians is what we all should strive to be like.

 

You know this isn't the 18th century. The Koran is not a mystic text in a language we don't know so you can make statements like that.

It is readily avilable, as are Islamic accounts of the life of their prophet.

Now I have heard that there is a school of thought that their prophets vengefull, murderous, and general "kill my enemies and rape or sell their wives" ways were context based, as opposed to a model for all Muslims to follow.

That is at least hopefull if it has some following. My hope is that as Judaism managed to move post stoning, Islam can move past the example of their prophet somehow or other.

You write well, the Bible example is a good one for taking things out of context, and I really wish you were right.

But with Islam there is no taking things out of context required.

I never said that. However as literacy has spread and violence was further away, Christians have come around to the example of Christ.

With Islam they must turn away from the example of their prophet, and this may prove too much.

If only...

 

Of course we don't have anything to do with the decision where other people choose to send themselves. God made His decision, it was made before the first humans inhabited this earth. You can find what He says about this in His Word. There is no misinterpretation about His intent with those who accept or reject His son. To think otherwise is to misconstrue His Words and to care more about being PC than standing on the truth. I do not condone hating, persecuting or spreading ignorance. You have confused Islam with Christianity in this respect. Revelation of the Word is a higher criteria than is interpretation which lends itself to personal bias, culture, family influence and many other factors. You either believe what Jesus says or you don't. No equivocation on the matter, else you dilute the Word of God.

 

Would you suggest that most Mulsims have read the Koran? Most Christians have read the Holy Bible?

No matter your answer, the problem with the two Faiths is one is a lie, the other the truth. One serves satan, the other God. They both cannot being serving the same Master for God is not the author of confusion for His Children, only the unsaved who have rejected His Son.

 

Of course there's hope for Islam.

Fastest growing religion and there isn't anything wrong with it to be reformed. It's a pure faith throughout it's history currently being exploited by a minority of so-called Muslims for killing innocent people (not differentiating between faiths by the way, they kill whoever)...

Islam is perfect the way it is and if you took the time to learn about the religion you would realize the actions of fundamentalist radicals (which are part of any religion/belief system) aren't taught in Islam nor consistent with the teaching of Islam.

Salam

 

Oh God, you're one of those people...

FYI all 3 Abrahimic faiths worship the same God. Just thought you should know that.

Salam