Those whiny, sniveling, lazy, commie, socialist LIBERALS!!!!

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Patricio Da Silva, Dec 26, 2024.

  1. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Is that your famous minor in epistemology talking?

    Well I've got 30 years as an automotive engineer that says your epistemology isn't worth the paper it's written on.

    If you actually want to discuss real science, let someone who actually knows something about science know.
     
  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    You still don't get it.

    The underlying premise cannot be determined by anecdotal images of strip mines and oil rigs.

    But, of course, IF you do not understand what the underlying premise IS, that is when you'll make the comment you just made.

    What is the underlying premise?

    The "footprint'.

    And, the 'footprint' cannot be determined by the images, but WBK has a confusion on that point, and, apparently, you do, as well.

    What is the source of the argument. Remember what it is?

    We were arguing which is better for the environment, EV or Gas vehicles, remember?

    Were you paying attention to our conversation, kriman?

    So, what possible 'footprint' could we be talking about other than the carbon footprint?

    WKB seems to believe that a single strip mine, being 'bigger' in physical size, than a single oil rig, proves that EVs are worse for the environment than gas engine cars.

    Now do you see the fallacious logic being imparted by WBK?

    WBK seems to think that a single strip mine mining lithium for EV batteries for EVs, being physically bigger than a single oil rig, whose oil is to provide gas for cars, proves that EVs are worse for the environment than gas cars.

    Do you see the logical fallacy here, or not?

    Well, do you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2024
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  3. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Apparently, your AI is lying to you. Wild Bill was pointing out that the use of batteries has more than one kind of footprint impact. The pictures show an oil well pump that takes up less than ten square feet as opposed to a lithium mile that takes up tens of acres. .
     
  4. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm just putting forth the salient argument.

    Since you profess to be an 'expert', I'll put the question to you.

    All factors considered, i.e., the emissions of the vehicles, and the emissions of all aspects of manufacture, which are better for the environment, EVs or gas cars?

    My data says EVs.

    But, I'm not an expert.

    So,, what say you?
     
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  5. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    No, the ONLY salient issue is which are better for the environment, all factors considered, EVs or gas cars?

    No other argument is meaningful.

    He is the one who ARBITRARILY introduced the photo, SIDESTEPPING the issue under discussion.

    **** about 'AI'.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2024
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  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't think so. I would imagine any moderately intelligent individual would know what I said in that post. But don't feel ashamed to ask if there is anything in it that you didn't know.

    So long as you are not intent on engaging in pseudoscience, I'll be happy to answer anything I CAN answer.

    Well... I have to admit epistemology is not very useful if what you're looking for is to change the oil in your car. But I see absolutely ZERO relevance to this topic so....
     
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  7. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So, if both were giving you the same revenue, you would not prefer the smaller oil well pump over the much larger strip mine.

    Personally, for me there is no contest. The oil well pump would barely interfere with farming or ranching. The many acres of streip mine are not available for farming or ranching.

    There are also environmental issues. The oil well pump would have minimal effect. That strip mind will not allow any kind of vegetation. As you might recall, vegetation converts CO2 to oxygen and carbon. Additionally, the strip mine will not support birds or wild animals. For all practical purposes, it is a desert.
     
  8. Cybred

    Cybred Well-Known Member

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    Then don't strip mine.
     
  9. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Clearly ICE. Particularly if the non-pollutant CO2 (which I assume is what drove your "carbon" reference) is removed from the equation as it should be.

    In addition, if one considers ICE's clear superiority in doing work (in the physics sense) there's no way EVs come close to competing.

    What do I mean by work? Simply look at the recent hurricanes in the southeast. I live near I-81 and every disaster I get to watch the parade of electrical utility vehicles coming from utilities all over the country going to help. Now these are vehicles owned by electrical utilities. One might think they're the perfect customer for EV trucks.

    So how many of those trucks are EVs? Zero. None. Nada.

    Why?

    Because EV utility trucks would be blindingly stupid.

    I'll leave it to you to ponder why that is.
     
  10. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    I work in powertrain development, specifically powertrain controls. That bleeds over into emissions controls, combustion optimization and measurement, and regulatory compliance.

    There's no pseudoscience about it.

    And no, I pay others to change the oil in my car.
     
  11. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    WKB's photo comment is a red herring. And I am factoring in the ramification issues.

    Here’s the deal: EVs are better for the environment than gasoline cars. Period. That’s what the science says -- at least when you’re not cherry-picking data like it’s a pie-eating contest. But, like everything else in this crazy world, there’s a catch. The impact depends on where you’re plugging in that shiny electric marvel. If your electricity’s coming from clean, renewable sources, congratulations -- you’re a ******n environmental hero! But if your grid’s running on coal and dinosaur juice, well, you’re just moving the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack.

    The bottom line? As the grid gets greener, so do EVs. Gasoline cars, though? They’re stuck in the Stone Age, chugging oil and farting carbon no matter how you slice it. So yeah, until we discover anti-gravity flying saucers, etc., EVs are the future -- but only if we keep turning those power plants into wind farms and solar fields instead of fossil fuel shrines.

    ON strip mining, now we’re getting to the gritty part. Lithium strip mining -- turning lush landscapes into lifeless craters so we can feel good about plugging in our shiny electric cars. Let’s not kid ourselves: there’s no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to the environment. Sure, EVs don’t belch carbon dioxide out of a tailpipe, but if we’re ripping up vegetation that actually helps the planet breathe, we’re just swapping one problem for another. I do get your point. It’s like going on a diet but replacing salads with deep-fried kale chips -- are you really helping yourself, or just dressing it up?

    Here’s the rub: lithium mining is a messy business. It destroys ecosystems, uses a ton of water -- especially in areas that don’t have much to spare -- and leaves behind a scar that doesn’t heal anytime soon. The CO2-to-oxygen conversion you’re talking about? Yeah, that’s nature’s original air filter, and every chunk of land we strip mine for lithium is one less patch of Earth doing the job for us.

    So how does it factor in? It’s part of the bigger picture, the uncomfortable truth we need to face: EVs aren’t perfect. They’re better than gasoline cars in a lot of ways -- especially as the grid gets greener -- but they’re not an environmental magic wand. The real solution? Push for better mining practices, invest in battery recycling, (maybe figure out alternatives to lithium, ya think? ) and, hey, maybe consume less stuff overall. Because the more we demand, the more holes we dig -- literally. We MUST move away from fossil fuels, and as of late, EVs are the better path, until something better comes along.

    But, maybe it's the water car? That's being tinkered with as we speak.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2024
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  12. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hey, thanks for chiming in -- always good to hear from someone who knows their way around an engine block. But let me take a crack at a few of the points you brought up, because I think we might be talking past each other a little bit here. Yeah, I've pondered this, taken in what you said.

    First off, the whole ‘non-pollutant CO2’ thing. Look, I get it -- plants love the stuff, and the planet needs it in moderation. But when we’re pumping so much of it into the atmosphere that the ice caps start looking like they’re on a crash diet? Yeah, we’ve got ourselves a problem. That’s why CO2 gets the bad rap -- it’s not because it’s inherently evil, but because we’ve gone and overloaded the system. Right?

    Now, about ICE being better at ‘doing work.’ You’re right -- EVs aren’t exactly dominating the utility truck world, and that’s because they’re not built for that yet. Heavy-duty vehicles need range, fast refueling, and the ability to haul a small village if necessary. EVs aren’t there today, no argument. But here’s the thing: I’m not comparing EVs to utility trucks. I’m talking about EVs versus ICE cars for everyday use. Personal vehicles. Commuters. Grocery getters. And in that arena, EVs clean ICE’s clock when it comes to emissions and long-term environmental impact.

    As for the hurricanes and the parade of utility trucks -- yeah, I see your point. Those trucks need to do a job, and right now, EVs aren’t practical for that. But let’s not throw the EV baby out with the bathwater. Just because they’re not ready for utility work doesn’t mean they aren’t making a big dent in reducing emissions where they do work. And honestly, isn’t that the goal? Get the technology where it fits now and let it evolve for the rest later?

    Finally, let’s get back to the question: all factors considered -- manufacturing, emissions, the whole nine yards -- EVs still come out ahead for most use cases. Sure, they’ve got their flaws, like lithium mining and battery recycling, but those are solvable. Meanwhile, ICE vehicles are stuck burning fossil fuels until the end of time. If you’ve got some hard data that says otherwise, I’d love to see it. Respect where it’s due -- you’ve got experience here. But for now, the numbers still have EVs in the lead for every day use, as far as I can tell. But, feel free to prove me wrong.

    And hey, I’ll leave you with that old Upton Sinclair gem: ‘It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.’ Not saying that’s you -- just food for thought about how tied we all can get to the things we’ve built our careers around. Always worth stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. Hmmm?

    As for ICE, how about Water cars, converting water to hydrogen, etc? I'm wide open on that one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2024
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  13. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I'll return the favor and carry the conversation forward a little later. Right now the Lions are playing the 49ers on TV and this old Ford kid from Dearborn has a football game to watch.
     
  14. kriman

    kriman Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Whether you like it or not, obtaining the lithium needed for batteries also provides environmental issues that must be considered.

    It takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the hydrogen provides. That is basic chemistry.
     
  15. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Go Lions and Go Blue!!!
     
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  16. Nwolfe35

    Nwolfe35 Well-Known Member

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    No, it was REGULATION of Capitalism that brought the decline of Company Towns

    The game of Monopoly was created to show the evils of unregulated Capitalism. Everyone starts equal, but as the game progresses one player finally becomes the owner of everything bankrupting all the other players. That is 100% pure unregulated capitalism.
     
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  17. CornPop

    CornPop Well-Known Member

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    100% chance of being an AI generated bot response.

    1000018509.jpg
     
  18. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I ran my own little experiment with these so-called AI checkers. You know, the ones that rely on AI to critique AI. Talk about a snake eating its own tail, except without the charm.

    And surprise, surprise -- they’re wrong half the time. False positives out the wazoo.

    But here’s the fun part: you’re sitting there trashing AI while using AI. What’s that about? Pick a side already. It’s reliable when it’s convenient for you, but garbage when it’s not? That’s some top-tier mental gymnastics right there.

    So I asked AI about its algorithms. Guess what? One of their big markers is “perfect grammar.” Yeah, because most people totally crush that every day, right? Sure, let’s pretend everyone’s secretly a Nobel-winning linguist.

    Look, I’m a writer. English was my thing. So, yeah, these systems ping me for false positives all the time. It’s like being arrested for walking too confidently down the street.

    But let’s get real -- it doesn’t even matter. None of this does. All that matters is the argument. Either you can rebut it, or you can’t.

    Who gives a flying burrito who’s making the argument? We’re all anonymous keyboard jockeys anyway. The whole idea of “authorship” here is a joke.

    But hey, that little nugget probably went sailing right over your head.

    Go ahead, run this through your precious AI checker. It’ll flag it as a false positive like it always does. I can’t help it if I don’t write like an absolute moron. Try Scribbr, then try decopy.ai, then do the one you are using, you'll probably get three different results.

    I just checked something I wrote for the Huffington Post back in 2013, it came up 50% AI. Long before there was AI.

    I'm a writer, Cornpop, I don't write like most people, I get it right, (usually, or I try to) and AI flags that as AI because getting it right is not natural. Sorry, I can't tell you who I am so that you could check the blog post, I must remain anonymous.

    You guys are a trip.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2024
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  19. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Run this article, written before AI was really known, or became a thing, back in 2018

    https://decopy.ai/ai-content-detector/

    Here's the article. 83% AI in the above AI checker, which is impossible, there were no AI copy generators in 2018, not any that were any good, not like ChatGPT or Copilot.

    https://web.archive.org/web/2019010...rchive/2018/10/james-madison-mob-rule/568351/

    Then run it here:

    https://www.scribbr.com/ai-detector/ 100% human.

    Now do you see the problem with AI checkers and competent/professional writing?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2024
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  20. popscott

    popscott Well-Known Member Donor

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    So... are we running our own little experiments with the so-called AI checkers, by using AI to check the AI checkers? Kind of like the FBI investigating the FBI and finding they did nothing wrong.

    AI is a lazy mans way of research... You get out what you selectively put in... you can query with different questions until you get the RESULT you want... we see the exact same thing thing when they take polls and the poll questions...

    and the best part.... AI spits out fake WaPo and fake CNN articles with their usual fake unnamed unverified anonymous expert "sources familiar with the issue" in some vague report only fake CNN has seen and will interpret what is says for you... as they use uncredible articles as credible..
     
  21. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    From everything I read online---it was the automobile that brought forward the decline of company towns. The towns were in strong decline by the 20's, well before any type of regulation. They became obsolete.
     
  22. JonK22

    JonK22 Well-Known Member

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    The mental gymnastics to deny Gov't regulation and programs decline of not only company towns BUT MONOPOLIES is funny

    "Furthermore, the accessibility of the working class to private transport also marked a step of equality as they had previously only been accessible to the wealthy. As access to surrounding municipalities increased, residents of company towns gained access to an increasing amount of government-funded public resources such as schools, libraries, and parks.

    Modernization and the increase in material well-being had also lessened the perceived need for paternalism and moral reform. Accordingly, the economic downturn of the early 1930s saw some businesses do away with employee welfare schemes to reduce costs. However, the Roosevelt Administration’s New Deal dealt the final blow to end American company towns by raising minimum wages, encouraging industrial self-governance, and pushing for the owners of company towns to “consider the question of plans for eventual employee ownership of homes”. To a lesser extent the New Deal also reduced the need for employee housing by transforming housing finance to a lower-interest, lower-deposit system making home ownership more accessible to the working class."

    https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/organizations/labor/company-towns-1890s-to-1935/

    WAY TO IGNORE THE POSIT ON THE GAME MONOPOLY T00, lol
     
  23. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so regulation dealt "the final blow". It was the "final blow" because the towns and concept were becoming obsolete. And my original point from the first---was that A Company Town---is the same model as Socialism. One entity controlling the products and services offered. We should take note of that when we start advocating for government controlled healthcare.
     
  24. Pieces of Malarkey

    Pieces of Malarkey Well-Known Member

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    Wait.... you're a Lions fan and a Michigan fan?

    Dang happy to know that!
     
  25. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Your data is inaccurate an fails to take into account far to much thinks that run counter to you argument. Not to mention which that there isn't enough lithium and rare earths and copper to furnish everyone an ev. And that scarcity of material simply will create a price curve that alone will make EV as a substitute for gas powered cars untenable,
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2024

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