~ TRUTH A BILLION SHADES OF GRAY ...Or ? ~

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by RevAnarchist, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. Beast Mode

    Beast Mode New Member

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    I can't think of an example off of the top of my head. Tell me a true statement/non-intuitive/not logical evident that makes a statement true?
     
  2. Incorporeal

    Incorporeal Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Brother... I will also spend some time looking at that article. Thanks for the link.
     
  3. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Ok my friend here is one to try on; 'things' can be in two places at once.

    True, non-intuitive and not logical.

    Hint # 1; quantum physics! Hint #2; superposition principle etc...

    'Answer' ; QM Quantum Mechanics own a LOT of non-intuitive and not logical statements that happen to be true. Most concern how mass energy etc behaves at the quantum level.

    reva
     
  4. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Truth is a subjective state of mind and not synonymous with fact. Want a "real truth"? Green is truly my favorite color. Now does this make it "the" truth or just "my" truth? Concepts like truth and facts are utterly useless in theology as its an exercise in futility to base facts/truth on a theological intangible.

    Theology is about faith and if there is any truth in theology its that we all see God differently.
     
  5. Beast Mode

    Beast Mode New Member

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    Quantum physics and Superposition is entirely a mathematical description. Mathematics is just an abstraction of the function of logic. The examples you gave are entirely logic based. There are points where you have to make an assumption, otherwise you can't know the outcome, like in the case of variables and complex numbers. But once the assumption is made then the logic follows to it's conclusion...that is a true statement.

    You can argue that the variables of the equations are non-intuitive, but you'll invalidate the entire equation. And that would invalidate the true statement you are trying to make, and truth is compromised.

    We can't measure quantum particles without affecting them. That is the reason for the margin of error in quantum physics (unless you have a better explanation?). Because of the photoelectric effect, to observe a quantum "particle" we must interfere with a "particle" with another quantum particle and this causes the observed "particle" to move. Velocity creates energy (movement), even if a particle has no mass (photon). A particle (mathematically) is a wave until we crash into it with a photon or electron.

    This could all just be misapplied rules to a process that can't be quantified. But you'll have to explain to me why this process can't work (but does when applied to cell phone communications), and a different one is better to figure out truth.
     
  6. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Did you read the title? Truth is a billion shades of gray...the 'Or ?' was for others opinion. If one can define truth God should be it. God knows everything knowable thus only God can define and produce truth. Now of course as beast mode you and others have pointed out truth is subjective but I am saying if God exists and in the future truth, if computers continue to grow in power, then truth may not be a billion shades of gray. Truth exists however we may not be able to produce it....yet.

    That said your misconception of metaphysics and theology is a sad testament to the ignorance of a small segment of our population. The truth is Metaphysics is the only thing that today even may come close to define and discern ‘truth‘. Science sure can't with its scientific method demanding falsifiability and its history of being WRONG, Making horrific errors is bad enough but when the entrenched powers that be dig in and resist those that may hold the answers the untruths of science have sometimes persisted for decades! In any case open your mind up truth may emerge yet, if Jesus comes early for example!


    reva
     
  7. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Yes I could explain that to you however I was using the quantum processes to show an event that was did not follow logical assumptions and were far from intuitive (or what one would think is true or should be) with the event being true etc. So now you see how something can be true and not logical or intuitive correct?

    To answer your question without going into detail that even I have a difficult time understanding, we can understand it like this; when an engineer designs a circuit using quantum formulations he uses the rules of probability to tell where the particle will be and as well as its speed momentum etc. He cant know for sure but can know to a high enough degree of probability to design a good circuit. Cool eh?

    I hope that helped ~


    reva
     
  8. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    For God to be the basis of truth we have to be able to prove the existence of God... which we cant... thus making the entire argument moot.

    Oh jump off your high horse. Metaphysics is a broad field of study with many differing schools of thought and debated to this day. As for theology man worships many Gods and yours is no better or worse than any other. Metaphysics and theology are intangible concepts of the mind and thus highly subjective.

    Which is far removed from actually defining and discerning 'truth'.

    Short of God materializing and being interviewed on CNN we will never know the 'truth'... which leaves us to rely upon faith.
     
  9. Beast Mode

    Beast Mode New Member

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    Probability is a plurality of true and false statements. Probability is necessarily logical and intuitive. If probability can be used to utilize quantum mechanics then that demonstrates the truth of it's nature. Again, the point being that truth is a statement or proposition that is accepted as true. In this case, the probability measure is several true and false statements.
     
  10. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Actually it's pretty obvious that we don't have to do a damn thing, any more than one has to prove the speed of light is constant for it to actually be constant.
     
  11. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Do you really not see how you've contradicted yourself?

    Really??
     
  12. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    The speed of light can be measured... how do you measure a theological intangible?
     
  13. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    That might be interesting if there were any reason to believe it was any different before anyone measured it.

    See above.
     
  14. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Faulty thinking. If God exists truth exists, proving god exists does nothing. Do you understand? I am not sure I know what you mean by God being the basis of truth. Truth is anything that isn’t false. That’s all.


    Your problem is that you can not see it’s not a horse it’s a unicorn. Do you know science promotes a theory where unicorns and elves really exist? So much for truth using science lol. Really, I don’t understand why you sprinkle your comments with sometimes meaningless statements. What is your point in the claim that metaphysics is debated to this day? Many things in science are debated to this day..


    Everything comes from the mind. Also there is only one God but many religions.


    Still another sentence that makes limited sense. The mind defines reality, so all things could be said to come from the mind. In fact there is a line of study that claims without sentient beings the universe does not exist at all!

    No what we do is make the best decisions with what we know. Then those decisions allows us to make sense of the universe. In fact our brain is wired to intentionally deceive us. But that is getting into neuroscience, interesting but complicated to discuss in a message board setting. The way I look at truth is to use probabilities. We correlate the information from our senses then chose the most probable set of information that will allow us to navigate this life with little regard to ‘truth‘. We only can compartmentalize truth as a metaphysical concept that is probably not reachable as a flesh and blood being. So we in fact allow our brain to deceive us in the natural world and accept all things in this universe on faith.
    'Supernatural' faith is different. The faith that our particular belief system are correct can be shown to be true by various methods. In any case our bodies are nothing but material vessels that exist to give our soul/mind senses a life support system while joined to the physical universe. It allows us to define the material universe and give our conscious our soul if you will a way to surf the riff of time until we become one with God eternal beings that is truth incarnate.

    reva
     
  15. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    No please elaborate. And tell me what specific claims do you think I make that are faulty?


    reva

    - - - Updated - - -

    THE SPEED OF LIGHT CAN DIFFER! Didnt you know that? REALLY? lol! So I will assume your seeming error in the light speed error indicates your knowledge base of metaphysics as well, which means my claims are unchallenged by your comments eh?
    Lol relax


    reva
     
  16. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    Please tell me how exactly is probability both true and false statements? Then maybe we can talk about how its logical and intutive. I am not saying you are incorrect, its just that I am not sure what you mean. Lastly be aware that there are many types of logic, when I am referencing the type of simple logic that tells us 4 is the number after 1,2,3...


    well no if I understand you correctly. Probability is used when the sum is so high like 99 to the 10th power that something will happen a certain way that its nearly the same as being 100% sure. Again that is HIGHLY simplified. I know only the rank basics of how QM is used in applied science.

    Thanks for your interesting replies BeastMode

    reva
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    HOW is supernatural faith different?
    what is supernatural faith different to?
    list all the ways in which supernatural faith is different to wishful thinking, and be as specific as I know you can be (given your firm assertion that supernatural faith is 'different). I'd like clear and well defined answers, please. also please explain how you personally, differentiate these things. again, very specifically. ie, what method and mechanism do you use to verify?

    in my bold: death cult!
     
  18. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    Request denied, as no one who requires explication of such an obvious point is worth talking to.
     
  19. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    If you are hoping for empirical proof there is none. There is no 100% accurate proof for anything material or immaterial, tangible or intangible natural or supernatural. The problem is that you and everyone makes sense of their world by wishful thinking as you call it. So that I choose metaphysics i.e. religious belief as true over your science or self defined reality as true gives your view exactly no more reliability or credibility than mine. With all due respect I opine the method of determining truth using science detracts from any world view or afterworld/life view. And that is the truth.

    reva
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    so, you can't answer my questions, then? what a surprise :/

    seriously, I'm not asking for weights and measures, I'm asking for YOUR own personal method of determining the difference between your own 'stuff' (mental masturbation, wish thinking, immortality dreams, self-soothing, etc) and the supernatural. and I would still like you to back up you claim that supernatural faith is different. HOW is it different?
     
  21. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    I was sure that would be your response. You can not defend your position. In many forums you would lose the debate by default. Your words and claims fail here as well.

    reva
     
  22. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    I would be happy to direct you to a post as to where I describe how I chose my faith in very fine detail you know the evidences for the existence of God my near death experiences the Penrose thing and many other evidences etc, Well actually it is about how God chose me. not . It is a very long thread and I do not wish to duplicate it.


    ps and I highly suggest you stop your trash mouthing ...er flame baiting ...

    reva
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    so, rather than provide workable and clear answers, you get huffy about my use of the clinical term "mental masturbation"? you did realise I used that as an ALTERNATIVE to religious feelings, didn't you? trash mouthing .... snorffles :D

    regarding my questions: I wanted to know how you differentiate between prosaic emotions and spiritual stuff. could you possibly give a simple and clear (and workable to the average joe) explanation of the mechanism you use to ascertain you're not chasing rainbows. cheers.
     
  24. RevAnarchist

    RevAnarchist New Member Past Donor

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    No, there is no simple short answer for many things including why one should believe in God. Most single evidences etc are book length subjects! It’s like asking me if I can possibly teach you supersymmetric quantum mechanics and why it should accepted as a true and useful mathematical system. It cant be done!

    So I do know what you want and I will do the best I can, but some of your criteria i.e. the request for a simple and short reply is an impossible task! But if you would allow me an attempt at one of the reasons I believe, maybe that will help you understand why I am no longer an atheist, I have written most of this stuff over and over here at PF but it wont hurt to do some of it again I suppose... , lol.

    Ok, here goes; I became an atheist at age oh ...about seven or eight. I held my lunch money out and asked God if he existed to take that money and use it for something good (figuring if all the kids did the same god would be rich lol love that magical thinking of childhood eh? I . Of course It did not happen. So that began my introduction to atheism. I began studying in the ‘God is dead’ era (according to most professors and time magazine) on campus era, but it was the supreme arrogance that tipped me off that something isn’t kosher. Why did the profs hate god in a near fanatical manner? In fact it was the professors hate and my under-grad education in science that I took to buttress my atheism that did the opposite and convinced me (eventually) that its more logical to assume God exists.

    Now I am not going to delve into all the reasons which are each a book length subject and a trip to the local library or online can show my reasons to believe. However the deaths nail that killed my atheism was a near death experience. I wrecked my harley Davidson racing on the third of july late night. I had closed all the clubs in the college town and got in a race on the way home and I lost it in a off camber curve. I was laying there bones sticking out everywhere unable to move it was pitch black dark and I began to fear for my life. Suddenly I heard someone say “do you want to die without knowing me?”

    Long story short I knew who or what was talking to me and it weren’t the EMS people. I thought or said I want to know you etc etc. I of course lived mostly. So that NDE even though saved my real life. I know, I KNOW what unbelievers say about NDWs ie brain death O2 depletion causes the god complex etc etc. However as I said at the beginning of this line of questioning there is no tangible or empirical evidences for God or anything for that matter. All we can hope for is a solid case of circumstantial evidences for Gods existence, and we have that in spades! Hey that isn’t so bad, you or I can be put to death with a case built on purely circumstantial evidence !

    God bless this forum ~


    reva
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    While I thank you for taking the time to tell your story, it still doesn't answer the very specific question of how you make the determination that the stuff in your head is from god, and not just self talk and emotions. "I just know" doesn't really work.

    Regarding your NDE, do you not think it odd that you happened to get a message from the Jewish god, and hindus get messages from their gods?
     

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